I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of us all to thank Marc for the tremendous effort he has taken to improve and maintain these forums.
Here is a
BIG THANK YOU


from us all

Well said Howard, :agree:

/Claes

Same here THANKS

Yes, thanks for spoiling us rotten!!!

Kevin

Now we'll have to see how things go. This is all so weird - I thought today was saturday.

I appreciate the kudos, but keeping the forums up is little in contrast to the contributions you folks put in though your helping others.

Ditto from me.

Thank you very much, Marc. This site has always been the "refuge from the storm"!!!!

Carol

Count my thank you also - especially to Marc for providing and taking care of the site - and also to Cove members for everyone's help with issues!!!!

Bill

I also agree with the BIG THANK YOU to Marc, and propose a round of APPLAUSE!

:) Or, a round of ... whatever ... :)

Graeme

I appreciate the thoughts. But it's you folks who 'make' the forums!

Soon things should be back to normal and the board should improve as the script releases come. I think server issues are *nearly* solved. If I can get this second DNS change through this week we'll be all set!

Again, my thanks to each of you!

Marc, I cannot even begin to tell you how much I appreciate the forums. There have been many days when things were going badly that the forums were my refuge. I recently started a new job and you know how it goes with new jobs...you don't know anyone and feel awkward, but the Cove was a few keystrokes away and I felt like I'd gone home.

Yes, the sharing is wonderful, but we wouldn't have the opportunity to share without your vision.

I just keep the server up and the software working - usually...

It's the members from all over the world, like you, who make the forums.

I just keep the server up and the software working - usually...
It's the members from all over the world, like you, who make the forums.
You're free to be as humble as you want, but without the Cove YOU set up and keep running, many new and inexperienced people like myself would have few places to turn for general or specific help or to ramble like an idiot while stuck in a upgrade process (like me :bigwave:).

Thanks for the hard work Marc as well as all the help contributors.
-----------
It's GREAT to have so many people willing to share what they know and have openly in a forum group!
(Especially when you work for a small company will little money to spare).
Thanks all!

Thanks to Marc for providing the place and thanks to everyone for the information.

Thanks to Marc for providing the place and thanks to everyone for the information.

I just want to add my 2 cents. This new whatever you call it is great. Did it cost more than $40? :vfunny: Good job, Cheech! :bigwave:

I have to pay a yearly fee to 'license' the scripts for use - due every September. Actually it's only about US$150 or so a year - pretty cheap considering how complex this set of scripts is.

But again, those of you who have contributed financially and/or through contributions of your information and/or files are the raison d'etre and the root of the Forums success in being online for all these years.

Marc,

I'm happy that I contribute my dollars. You have done a sterling job and the site is an excellent networking area for QA professionals (and roofing contractors). The new software has only enhanced the already great service.

PS: I'm glad it was you and not me. It sounds like too much hard work.

Greg B

Marc,

I'm happy that I contribute my dollars. You have done a sterling job and the site is an excellent networking area for QA professionals (and roofing contractors). PS: I'm glad it was you and not me. It sounds like too much hard work.

Greg B

Sure, Take your shot, ole Ancient Mariner. I'm here for you! I couldn't get a rise out of Marc with the $40 thing, but you don't waste any time. Take off that Smokey The Bear rig. :vfunny: :smokin:

PS:I'm glad it was you and not me. It sounds like too much hard work.

Greg B
Usually it's not all consuming. Over the last year and a half things have run pretty smoothly. The recent events have been extraordinary in that there actually were 2 server changes, problems on the first of the two which screwed up the database - and the server changes were not planned. Only the software update was planned. It was like starting out for a party (anticipating a significant software update), being in a car wreck (slow server - 1st server switch) and then the CareFlight helicopter crashes on the way to the hospital (server screws up so a second server change has to happen). Then, the Emergency Room is full when you finally reach the hospital.

To some degree I 'put up with it' as I take it as a learning experience and I enjoy playing with software and computers. I've learned more about MySQL and php scripting (programming, really, it's akin to C++ - closer than perl is). I'm learning about SSI's, CSS style sheets, I've finally been able to install all the scripts I use without paying a professional to troubleshoot something, I can switch DNS servers myself (domain wise) and lots of other things. Keeps my brain active.

The 'luck' in all this is that I had just finished up at Stolle when this came into view. I wouldn't have had the time or patience were I still working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day.

I have spent a lot of time on the site for quite a few years now. See http://elsmar.com/obsolete/wots.html for some history.

It's been a while, but I have gotten some good business from the site in the past. I didn't mind paying for everything. But where I used to go out and find things and I used to try to reply to folks, you folks are doing that now. I reached a point where answering the same question (such as "What do I haver to do in a Management Review Meeting?") made me want to scream. Having been so immersed in ISO for so many years, I just want to say "Do your own darn homework - read that's on the site."

You folks save me from having to be involved in the 'help' details day in and day out. And there are a lot of you who are closer to what's going on, not to mention more qualified than I, to help a lot of the people asking questions.

As I said - I keep the thing running. You folks keep it worth coming to.

Money wise, energy knows what it was like to me back in 2001 when I was 'under employed'. Right now things are going quite well but I learned from 2001 - which is when the significant money in big implementations dropped way off - that I want to break even actual expense wise and even maybe make a few bucks for the time I do put in since I rarely get any implementation business from the site any more.

As you can see, the site has evolved over the years, but at this point the success of the site (however that may be defined) depends upon you folks.

Sure, Take your shot, ole Ancient Mariner. I'm here for you! I couldn't get a rise out of Marc with the $40 thing, but you don't waste any time. Take off that Smokey The Bear rig. :vfunny: :smokin:
Energy,

Sorry. But you left yourself open and I was the first one there. Everyone must still have their 4th of July weekend hangovers still going. The site has been rather quite lately.
I'm looking forward to reading more in the Huntin' and Fishin' debates. Keep up the good work.
I must find another photo. I haven't worn the old RCMP hat for a while. It is actually what we call in the Aussie Military a Slouch Hat as the side is supposed to be pulled up and pinned to the side of the crown. In the first world war the light horseman (Calvalry) used to stick Emu (like an Ostrich) feathers in the side. Very dashing. :biglaugh:

Greg B

Marc, I just wanted to let you know, as far as my new job as quality manager, this site has been a wonderful help. Its really hard to describe what a benefit it is to the folks in the quality business. One litle question. What happened to that little box that read "View new posts since your last visit". That was the first thing I would click when I visited your site.
Again. Great Job!!!!!

Energy,

Sorry. But you left yourself open and I was the first one there. Everyone must still have their 4th of July weekend hangovers still going. The site has been rather quite lately.
I'm looking forward to reading more in the Huntin' and Fishin' debates. Keep up the good work.
I must find another photo. I haven't worn the old RCMP hat for a while. It is actually what we call in the Aussie Military a Slouch Hat as the side is supposed to be pulled up and pinned to the side of the crown. In the first world war the light horseman (Calvalry) used to stick Emu (like an Ostrich) feathers in the side. Very dashing. :biglaugh:

Greg B

One litle question. What happened to that little box that read "View new posts since your last visit". That was the first thing I would click when I visited your site.
Again. Great Job!!!!!

There are 5 buttons in the upper right hand corner when you enter the site. The second to the left is "View New Posts". If you pass your cursor over these buttons, a description pops up. Neat, hey? ;) :smokin:

Marc,

Top Job with the site. It looks great. I haven't been posting much lately but I drop by each day and the layout, colours and controls look terrific.

Keep up the excellent work

PS: Have you thought how you will alert each of the contributors next year for annual subscriptions?

Greg B

KOTI KOTI DHANYAVAD - Means Many many Thanks

Just lately I have been contacted by "non"-contributors for files that have been attached to different posts, not all of them my posts.
I don't mind the emails nor do I mind the requests for help. I want to see what you folks think about sending the attachments. One of the restrictions for not helping maintain the cove was not being able to download.
Do you feel it is defeating the purpose? A couple of the people that have contacted me I have never seen a post from.
Just wanted to get your feelings on this.
Last week I had someone (from another company) request I review a lesson plan they had put together. When I looked at it a couple slides seemed familiar and when I check "properties" my name was on it! How they got it, I don't know.

Just lately I have been contacted by "non"-contributors for files that have been attached to different posts, not all of them my posts.
I don't mind the emails nor do I mind the requests for help. I want to see what you folks think about sending the attachments. One of the restrictions for not helping maintain the cove was not being able to download.
Do you feel it is defeating the purpose? A couple of the people that have contacted me I have never seen a post from.
Just wanted to get your feelings on this.
Last week I had someone (from another company) request I review a lesson plan they had put together. When I looked at it a couple slides seemed familiar and when I check "properties" my name was on it! How they got it, I don't know.


Randy:

Yeah, that does kinda defeat the purpose. I have not had many requests like that, but consider them on a case by case basis. Usually they just get an email explaining whatever it is they are asking about.

Having someone ask you to review your own work must have been a shocker. Did you manage to keep your cool? I would have been a little steamed with no up front credit and with the document put forward as their own work. Plagerism, plain and simple. They are using what I consider an educational forum (especially since the recent changes) to avoid learning and doing their own work. One day, it will catch up with them.

Craig

Randy,

I have just recently joined the cove and the $25.00 membership fee is well worth the resources that are available to me. I can not tell you how much the forum has helped to open my eyes to new and improved ways of doing things. I have listened to the contributors and began to develop a unique system based on the wonderful advice and knowledge that I have gained from fellow covers.

In my opinion, MAKE THEM PAY because:

1. The money helps keep this forum alive
2. They are gaining access to YEARS of combined knowledge and experience
3. This forum will help them to build a functioning system without having to pay for outside help.


Just my opinion :bigwave:

I would like to say thank you also to Marc and everyone at the Cove. Like Rosie, I just started a new job. New people, uncomfortable, fumbling for answers, etc. I went in thinking I would be the ISO 9K2K Coordinator. Soon found out we were QS9000 and were to go over to TS by Feb '04, and hadn't begun the transition. The DAY I opened up the specification to read it, we lost our Q1 with Ford because someone had dropped the ball for ISO 14001 registration by this past July. To top it all off, not a single soul was interested in helping. Sink or swim. Sheesh.

Then I stumbled blindly into the Cove and what to my wondrous eyes did appear? Other people in my position seeking help and receiving it!!! Sound advice abounds!!!I just can't find the words to show my sincere appreciation for Marc and everyone else here. THANK YOU!

Just lately I have been contacted by "non"-contributors for files that have been attached to different posts, not all of them my posts.
I don't mind the emails nor do I mind the requests for help. I want to see what you folks think about sending the attachments. One of the restrictions for not helping maintain the cove was not being able to download.
Do you feel it is defeating the purpose? A couple of the people that have contacted me I have never seen a post from.
Just wanted to get your feelings on this.
Last week I had someone (from another company) request I review a lesson plan they had put together. When I looked at it a couple slides seemed familiar and when I check "properties" my name was on it! How they got it, I don't know.
I would ask that anyone contacted for an attachment respond however you personally see fit.

I will only remind folks, I spend a lot of time and money keeping these forums up. Right now I am literally paying for 3 servers. The Verio server we're on now, a test server which was not big enough, and a server brought online Monday which Steelman is helping me with. I hope, as it is, to bring the new server online the 15th - next weekend. Part of the 'new' server includes an 'online chat' function I plan to try. I'm excited about it, but I also have reservations. The server is from a company Steelman recommended and after a lot of research, I concur it's the best price/performance ratio. But - it's not Verio. I've made bad choices in my life before. This does look like an improvement, but it's essentially a startup company. Yes - I'm developing a daily, hopefully offsite (possible bandwidth issues), backup contingency plan (WoW! A QS-9000 requirement!! Imagine that!) Only time (getting it online and seeing what happens) will tell. For you folks, I'm interested in server response time to database requests and it's backbone connection (response under stress {data transfer under load}) and related issues. I have spent well over 60 hours in the last two weeks learning what I must to be able to maintain this server once it's online. I'm 1/2 finished. In that time - and it has been an exceptional 2 weeks - something like 15 people have contributed at some level. :eek:

See attached Subscriptions031105.jpg to see Paid Contributors and Courtesy Access Folks as of today. It's not as if I'm raking in the bucks here. I still haven't reached that 1 Million Contributors goal....

Rather than go into details of everything I've been through in the last couple of weeks, not to mention last June (or the last 7 plus years), if you folks want to keep these forums online I hope you will choose to inform those asking you for attachments that by by-passing 'Contributing' they are asking you to choose to eventually cause the forums to die.

But - the bottom line is, the site has become, as I have explained a number of times in other threads, quite an expense and a significant drain on my time. There is also a personal aspect in that I have to deal not only with my personality, but those of of others. This is, we all know, not the ASQ forums. Amongst other things, it is much more personal here. This is an e-mail I got today. I have not yet - but will tonight - give the person a 1 or 2 week 'complimentary' access. I understand to some folks US$25 is a lot. On the other hand, I cannot feed the world. I'm a one man band - not Mega Corp. which could afford to maintain a site like this from petty cash.
Hallo Marc,

I work as a constructor in the automobile industry(Grammer - seating
systems). Our company is going to achieve TS 16949 certification. I'm
interesting in quality management. It is hard for me to find materials
here in BG. Your site is very useful, but it's problem for me to
register so I could download the attachments. I do not have a credit
card? And I'm not able to pay a lot of money(with salary of 200$).
Could you help me to access the attachments?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards
Stoyan Bohorov

Constructor
Grammer AD

Tzar Osvoboditel str. 2
2160 Trudovetz
Phone: ++359 723 68-656
Fax: ++359 723 68-606
Let's face it - for most folks here, 25 bucks isn't a big deal out of your own pocket. There is a US$10 option for 2 months access. None the less, for someone to ask like this I don't mind giving a short complimentary access. There are those out there who can not afford to pay. You might even want to recommend to someone asking you to send them an attachment by e-mail, thereby by-passing 'the system', to contact me by e-mail and request courtesy access if an affordability problem is the issue.

Randy, as far as your reviewing a file which you originally authored, remember I used to give ALL my files away for free and many times I have seen them pop up. I consider it 'part of the game'. In some cases I could have tried to invoke Copyright, but that is against my belief system (I'm not a believer in copyright - I, like our founding fathers who established 14 years (of course, it's now 70+ years thanks to congress and Disney, et al), believe it stifles innovation and competition thus keeping prices high and much information unavailable) and I have stated so in the footer of most of the pages in the site - which is part of the personality of the site. I also plainly state that if one posts in the forums, anything one posts is Public Domain (see the bottom of http://elsmar.com/entry2.html ) I have to say when I find my works in such a manner as you describe, I'm sorta proud that someone thought it was worth using. No - I might not have 'made a sale', but I don't require my nickel in dollars. Sometimes the flattery, if you will, is worth it. I'll bet you really feel the same way.

Part of this whole thing IS sharing. However: If I was making the money I used to, I wouldn't be charging for anything now. Anyway, it's up to each of you how you want to handle such a request. If you want the site die, this is where you get to 'vote' by your personal action.

As a last consideration, I think you ALL know that there are a lot of free files here in http://Elsmar.com/pdf_files/, still, not to mention internet search engines, and that most of the people asking for files (in MY opinion) are just (I say this with some hesitation and regret) too friggin' lazy to spend the time to do the research.

Well, enough pontificating on my part. On with the show! :thedeal: Each of you will do what you feel is right.

I would like to take this opportunity on behalf of us all to thank Marc for the tremendous effort he has taken to improve and maintain these forums. Here is a BIG THANK YOU from us all
You folks (My BIG Thanks to every Moderator!) keep it going. I'm sorta in the 'admin' mode right now. Your role is more important than mine in many respects. The forums are nothing without the the help and sharing each of you extend to others.

I paid out of my own pocket, no problem. Its a great place to be.

Thanks Marc.

I just joined this forum a few weeks ago and paid my money to down load a file re auditing diferences between ISO 13485 1996 and 2003. I personaly, as a working, wage earning person, would not e-mail another member I did not know to ask for a file. I could imagine some one being inundated with e-mails if they posted a usfull file. When you consider what you can pay to subscribe so some jounals or news bullitins, the sevice ofered by this site is good value for money (even in Ozy dollars). I would encorage those who are financialy able to contribute and help make a geat forum even greater, not just by the $ but to contribute comments when moved.
Andrew
:)

I also paid out of my own pocket and think it was money well spent. I wish I could contribute as much as I have received from this forum. Nowhere else can you find what is available here. Glad to pony up for what's here Marc, keep up the good work.

I have stated before in other threads what a blessing this site has been to me. The feedback and advice offered are excellent (usually) ;) !! The contribution fee is very reasonable and these forums will stimulate your thought process helping to avoid those moments of "Timber induced vision obstruction" :bonk: that I am certain all of us have encountered.

Marc - Pontificate all you want it is "YOUR" site. I would like to say thanks for giving us the privelege of sharing in it as a resource. ;)

I paid out of my own pocket. I could have asked for reimbursement but why? This forum has assisted me in many ways. The amount of funds requested is not going to take food from your mouth. I, personally, would not forward files to someone who is not willing, but able, to pay for the rights. Yes some individuals just cannot, and as Marc has shown, is very generous.

Cindy

For the sake of saving time - can someone tell me what button to click or where to go to sign up and join. I have used this site a lot and it is very helpful. I feel that it is only right for me to contribute a fee to continue to converse with all of the gurus here. Thanks.

Marc - thanks for your time and energy with this site. Worth its weight in gold.

Marc,

I am sure that many covers will agree that our jobs would be a lot more difficult if it were not for the expert members of the cove. This forum is not only a professional assistance forum but a support group for every member of the quality field (let's face it we are usually not the most supported function within the organization). The files and posts that we have access to here have helped me a great deal with the development of our system. I enjoy the interaction with other professionals and feel that this type of support is indeed worth the $25 membership fee. As for me, I will not e-mail files to visitors. I will suggest that they register so that they can reap the benefits of ALL of the expert advice. Thanks for all of the hard work and dedication to the quality field. You, the moderators, contributors and this site are a true blessing. I wish I had found it years ago.

Michelle :bigwave:

I don't mind helping someone out, I'm not that far removed from starting up a system from scratch. My beginnings here were very similar to ISOGIRLS.
Back in the day (1996) I stumbled across the Cove and received some real help. At the same time, I couldn't offer much help because I was so new to the arena.
I would hate to see the cove go away, I've saved at least $25 by pirating Marcs forms (did I say that out loud?). :vfunny: BTW, I did send the individual a note stating that they should check the properties at the very least. But you're right, once it hits the internet or airways there's not much you can do.
I didn't want to stir up trouble, but 4 request in 3 days seemed a bit much, especially when you check and the people didn't have a post to their names and they didn't send the request by private message.
Where's the Sheriff when you need him?

So, Marc, according to my calculations, from data in your attachment, you took in a (barely) grand total of $2519.00 from the contributors to the site.

You sure aren't into this for profit are you? Essentially, you are paying for us to learn and have fun.

THANKS!!!!!

Hi all ...

I signed up for membership a few months ago, and a couple of days ago paid the $25. It's MORE than worth it, and I also paid out of pocket. Quite honestly, I don't want to turn it in on an expense report because I'd love for my boss to think all the brilliant ideas I get from the site are my very own! ;)

I appreciate you all -- have a great day!

Karin

For the sake of saving time - can someone tell me what button to click or where to go to sign up and join. I have used this site a lot and it is very helpful. I feel that it is only right for me to contribute a fee to continue to converse with all of the gurus here. Thanks.

Marc - thanks for your time and energy with this site. Worth its weight in gold.
Courtesy members and Moderators are not expected to pay. I appreciate your overall contributions. I tried to identify and extend ‘courtesy’ access to folks who had a history of helping others back around the switchover time in March.

Sending someone a file or two isn’t a big deal. The topic was being discussed and I put in my two cents. I expect such requests to be a normal part of life in the cove. I’m sorta acting like a traffic cop. They don’t really stop most people from speeding now and again, but they do sorta serve to keep things in perspective.

Back in March I started charging for access to attachments because the site is getting bigger and taking up so much more of my time. I pay for bandwidth, which attachments take a lot of as people download them, but in addition the rate at which disk space is eaten up was something I didn’t foresee so I’ve had to deal with that issue. But – I think you’ve read my comments so I won’t belabor the point.

I appreciate your contribution. You have an unexpiring Courtesy membership anyway, because you’ve donated so much – both attachments and, more important, you have taken so much of your time to answer questions people ask. I cannot tell you how many times I have read something you wrote to someone in a thread to help them and appreciated your sharing your knowledge. I tried to identify and extend ‘courtesy’ access to folks who had a history of helping others.

By the way - I used the e-mail function in the admin control panel to send each contributor and courtesy access member a link to this thread. I have not used the system before - as you folks know I don't send out unsolicited e-mail - but decided to for the heck of it. Everyone got the same e-mail and it was not intended to entice courtesy members to contribute, nor was it sent to imply anyone was or is by-passing the system. I figured the issue was being discussed and figured what the heck. I'm gonna try this button here and see what happens....

So, Marc, according to my calculations, from data in your attachment, you took in a (barely) grand total of $2519.00 from the contributors to the site.
In another thread I posted the income going back 3 years through August or September for the site as a whole. As I remember, this year so far, the site is having it's best year. Total income is about US$6K and I expect to see US$8K by end of year at the current rate. The post gave 3 years income and typically the site brought in between US$4K and US$6K the last 3 years.

Remember - that's GROSS income. With the switchover Steelman and I are going through right now, my server costs alone this month are over US$450. Software license fee is coming up at about US$160 / yr. You get the idea.

As much as I would like the site to be entirely free as it was a few years back, I just don't have the income to comfortably afford it.

On the other hand, I want to again emphasize the role each of you play in all this. I can complain about the costs, but without the Moderators and each of you the site is nothing. A lot of people give a lot of their time helping others here - which is what the site is, and has been, about.

Tom W,

Careful..........

You don't want to ooze!

Cindy

I recently removed the ability to send me an email because I was being inundated with those "dire" letters begging me to help some poor soul invest their fortune in an American account. I deleted my company name as well.

In the last two days I have received two different requests for documents from two different non-contributors in PM's. I did not email them because I don't want anyone to get ahold of my email address. I realize that people get the above mentioned emails all the time - but I've worked here for three years and never received one until a few months ago, and since I've deleted my email option I have not received another.

Even if I wasn't worried about that, I would not send them the documents anyway. Both of them had 0 posts, and they simply said "please send me this document." They didn't even bother with any niceties or anything.

After lurking on these boards for several months I payed for access to files a few days ago. It's a small price to pay for the wealth of information on this site. All of my questions have been answered with a simple search of the forums. The site is so great I haven't had the need to post a question. Never in my wildest dreams would I solicite someone to send a file that can be had for a small donation.

Just my two cents for what it's worth. Thanks to everyone for the great information and files available on this site!

Bill

I recently removed the ability to send me an email because I was being inundated with those "dire" letters begging me to help some poor soul invest their fortune in an American account. I deleted my company name as well.

Hi Cari,

Did these come through the Cove? When you receive an e-mail through the Cove, the sender can't see your e-mail addy. You usually will see additional headers on an e-mail from here.

I have always used my hotmail account here and I don't post my company info either....because it is my personal and my company's policy.

Marc...can you shed some additional light for Cari to ease her concerns.

CarolX

For the sake of saving time - can someone tell me what button to click or where to go to sign up and join. I have used this site a lot and it is very helpful. I feel that it is only right for me to contribute a fee to continue to converse with all of the gurus here. Thanks.

Tom,
Go here
http://www.elsmar.com/subscribe.html
CarolX

Although not a big poster of late I still receive numerous requests for files. The people that don't get a response from me are those who simply leave a message such as:

"please forward file XXXXXXX to "me", thanks.

That doesn't work for me. Most others get a response whether it be me sending the file or how to get it on the Cove. As I suspect with some of us, I keep a directory of the "latest and greatest" which are updated or revised to current requirements. These are saved for contributors and those in true need. (time for me to upload some of the new files for all to access)

Marc,

From a devout libertarian, keep up the good work!;)

Just lately I have been contacted by "non"-contributors for files that have been attached to different posts, not all of them my posts.

Here is what I do....I review the activity by the reqestor.

If I find they have not contributed anything (i.e. no posts), I just ignore the request.

If I find they have posted, I review the content of the posts. If I decide against sending them their request, I e-mail them and explain to them how the Cove operates and that to cirumvent the system was unethical.

I say treat it on a case by case basis. But if anyone get wind of someone being abusive...e-mail one of the moderators and we will help out.

CarolX

This has happened to me only once and I have, shall I say, obliged, with a piece of advice to the concerned (non-contributing) member to consider paying $25.

I was (I think) among the first 5 contributors. Did not have to think twice before paying the amount. $25 (Rupees 1170) is nothing compared to what I have got from the forums. ( and, I was not a moderator then !! :biglaugh: )

Hi Cari,

Did these come through the Cove? When you receive an e-mail through the Cove, the sender can't see your e-mail addy. You usually will see additional headers on an e-mail from here...

Marc...can you shed some additional light for Cari to ease her concerns.

CarolX

Thanks Carol - What I figured was when someone emailed me from the cove who didn't have any posts and I didn't recognize their name - when I replied then they would have my email address. If this is not so, then my concerns would indeed be eased. I'm not usually so guarded, but there were 2-3 a day for a couple of weeks.

We have an "anti-spam" something or other here, but I don't know how these things work or how they filter things out. Perhaps someone just got lucky and got through somehow and it had nothing to do with my email in the Cove.

I too contributed out of my own pocket. The owner here did offer to pay (I frequently print out threads for our team meetings), but the way I figured it was if he were to offer college reimbursment, he wouldn't pay me to sit at my desk and do my homework. I don't have a computer at home, but he does not mind my doing my "research" here during work hours. It all works out in the end.

When I receive a request for a document from someone without any posts at all I: 1) Ignore the response if it is "Please send me XYZ Doc." I'm miffed that they don't even bother to introduce themselves or anything. or 2) Respond that Marc is willing to listen to anyone who requests certain things and considers each request.

As, a consultant, I tell them that I would have to charge them for my time at a discounted rate of $100 per hour, billed in 1/2 hour increments. So, for $50, I'll send them the file. :thedeal:

Of course, some want to pay with Cari's credit card. :topic:

Hi Cari,

Did these come through the Cove? When you receive an e-mail through the Cove, the sender can't see your e-mail addy. You usually will see additional headers on an e-mail from here.

I have always used my hotmail account here and I don't post my company info either....because it is my personal and my company's policy.

Marc...can you shed some additional light for Cari to ease her concerns.
If you get any spam e-mails through the forums system, I'd like a copy as I can delete or otherwise deal with anyone using the forums system for spamming. That said, if someone does send you an e-mail through the forum e-mail system, they do not know your e-mail address. You will know theirs, as the receiver, but they will not know yours unless you e-mail them back.

But yes - if you e-mail someone else (we're not talking about the 'Personal Message' system here) using the forum mail system, that person WILL get your real e-mail address.

The 'personal Messaging' system is completely detached from e-mail, but one can't use it to send files to anyone else.

What I figured was when someone emailed me from the cove who didn't have any posts and I didn't recognize their name - when I replied then they would have my email address.
That is a correct assumption. If you e-mail someone, your e-mail address is revealed.

Here is what I do....I review the activity by the reqestor.

If I find they have not contributed anything (i.e. no posts), I just ignore the request.

If I find they have posted, I review the content of the posts. If I decide against sending them their request, I e-mail them and explain to them how the Cove operates and that to cirumvent the system was unethical.

I say treat it on a case by case basis.
Works for me!

I recently removed the ability to send me an email because I was being inundated with those "dire" letters begging me to help some poor soul invest their fortune in an American account. I deleted my company name as well.

Sent from Nigeria by any chance? If so we get them over here too.

/Claes

Cari,

if your comapny IT dept does use a SPAM blocker, perhaps they had it offline for a short period of time, or were resetting its parameters. If you've gone for a long time without EVER getting this stuff, then got it for a brief flurry, then stopped getting it again, that would be my guess. That, or your IT dept had a problem with their software, or even changed software, in that time period. Doesn't sound like a Cove thing, but...who knows???

I've had spam problems for about 2 years now, after being email/'net capable in this particular job for over 5 years. I'd get a rare SPAM before then, but really nothing to speak of. I joined a List server group for XRF and ICP analysis about 2-2.5 years ago, and shortly thereafter started getting spammed. In the first few cases of it, my ignorance opened me up to the deluge I now get: I had a couple of spams with the link in the email for "opting out of future mailings". These little links are merely tricks the spammers use to confirm your email as active, at which time they add your email to the evil empire of spam databases. At this point, one is now screwed :mad: :bonk: . Somewhere along the line this year, I started getting porn spam, which really made me mad. Our IT finally got some decent software, and is filtering pretty well. They tell me we get thousands of hits a day to our accounts, which get filtered out. I still get some every day, but I'm slowly weeding it out with the "Rules" in MS Outlook.
The List servers I'm on are operated by a good guy, who I believe would never sell us out, but he's not invincible to attack, and this "may" be the portal they got me through.

If I follow up on the spam I get, I should be a multi-trillionairre (long forgotten Nigerian bank money), with several night course college degrees, with 1% body fat, with the energy of a 22 year old, with all my hair and teeth, with a penis that is always erect and 3-5 inches longer than my norm that I will be able to use on my friends who are lonely, hot housewives of all races and national origins (in addition to my lovely wife)...among other pursuits :biglaugh: .

Joe-waiting on my spam ship to come in

I paid out of my own pocket, no problem. Its a great place to be.

Thanks Marc.

And that goes for everyone else at this site to!

Life is a bit hectic right now so there is not enough time spend here. But its is reasuring to know that you guys never are further than a mouse-clic away.

Cheers*! :)

If you get any spam e-mails through the forums system, I'd like a copy as I can delete or otherwise deal with anyone using the forums system for spamming...

I sure will Marc. I don't think that these were exactly spam though. I was suspicious of all these requests for documents by "0 post members" coinciding with the sudden barrage of those emails wanting to set up an American account. They can't see my email address when they email from the forums, but when I replied that I wouldn't help them out, please contact Marc, then they had it. They could email me from anywhere after that. Of course, I don't know for sure or anything.

...If I follow up on the spam I get, I should be a multi-trillionairre (long forgotten Nigerian bank money), with several night course college degrees, with 1% body fat, with the energy of a 22 year old, with all my hair and teeth, with a penis that is always erect and 3-5 inches longer than my norm that I will be able to use on my friends who are lonely, hot housewives of all races and national origins (in addition to my lovely wife)...among other pursuits :biglaugh: .

Joe-waiting on my spam ship to come in

Hey - good luck with that! :vfunny:

And thanks - that may be exactly what happened. I'm going to re-enable my emailing and I'll just have to be choosy about who I reply to.

Cari,

if you start getting the spams again, let your IT dept know and they "should" be able to screen for you. I used to forward almost all spam to both our IT and to the FTC here in the States. I'd even send to the ISP of the spammer, if I could trace it. After a short time, that got to be too much trouble, so I only did it when I got porn spam, which pretty much got blocked after I did that.
I've started using the "Rules" setup in MS Outlook to both delete incoming spam automatically, and forward it to one of our IT guys. You have to "play" with the criteria a bit, but it is helping delete spam that makes it through our IT filter.
It's amazing the amount of spam going out, and the things they tweak in order to defeat filtering software. If they put that much thought into some of our major world problems, it would be just like Star Trek world :biglaugh:

Joe

I love the Rules in MS Outlook. I don't see any spam at all for the ones set up. They automatically get deleted.

Cindy

I paid the $25 even though I was a contributor but, I don't know how to access the "special" features that the purchase is suppose to give you. Perhaps someone can help me in that regard. The forum in a general sense is a really great tool. The feedback couldn't be better.

I would like to take the opportunity to acknowledge 'Marc' and 'Cove Members' for the creation and development of this quality forum. It's a very good place to share our thoughts and providing inputs to the existing quality stuff. Also, it is very beneficial to find help or discuss in any area of the subject associated to quality assurance, quality control, inspection, environmental issues, OHSAS, etc.

'BIG THANKS' goes to Marc for his big efforts.

Regards,

I wanted to post here, because all of you have put up with me.
I want to thank all of you for your posts, it truely shows the caliber of people in this forum.
I consider all of you my friends and if you knew me you'd know how tough that is for me to say.
God bless you all (I'm not sorry Marc for pushing the limits) and thanks.

I wanted to post here, because all of you have put up with me.

Thank you Stew,

What do you mean put up with you? There is nothing to put up with you as far as I'm concerned. You are one of our great assets, for crying out loud. We want you here mate, ok?

/Claes :agree:

Paying for this page only gave me more information to do my job and helping us making it through the transition and other quality issues. I don't know what I would do without the wealth of information available through this forum. I get help, I get annoyed, I get new insight, I get it all!!!!!!

...I get annoyed...

Glad we can help. We all need more noyeds. :ko:

I would also like to thank Marc and everyone else. This site has been a very good resource and a friendly place to chat on work type topics as well as entertaining topics.

Thanks for all of the hard work Marc and thanks to all of the people that take time to help poor lost quality souls like me. Thanks a lot!

And of course a special thanks and Semper Fi to The Few, The Proud (and Stew). :bigwave:

I recently removed the ability to send me an email because I was being inundated with those "dire" letters begging me to help some poor soul invest their fortune in an American account. I deleted my company name as well.

In the last two days I have received two different requests for documents from two different non-contributors in PM's. I did not email them because I don't want anyone to get ahold of my email address. I realize that people get the above mentioned emails all the time - but I've worked here for three years and never received one until a few months ago, and since I've deleted my email option I have not received another.

Even if I wasn't worried about that, I would not send them the documents anyway. Both of them had 0 posts, and they simply said "please send me this document." They didn't even bother with any niceties or anything.


I have resurrected Cari's post above because of something that I have noticed and because of some comments Wes Bucey made on the ASQ board. It seems like we are getting more short requests to answer questions or provide information with little or no prior research on the part of the poster. Many times they have never posted before and do not participate in helping others after they receive their answers. Many do not even search the Cove much less the Internet before they ask for very basic information that is readily available with minimal work on their part.

Whether our responses are of value only readers know for sure but my question to the other Covers: Has the creation of information sharing boards like the Cove (which is financially supported by Marc with responses supplied by unpaid moderators and volunteers) made it too easy for participants to get others to do work for them?

If I am off base in my comments, please feel free to challenge me or if you agree, then let me know if you have suggestions on how to correct the problem.

Bill Pflanz

You're on target Bill. As you might detect from some of my posts I don't hesitate in advising folks to do some basic research. If I have a question I look thru the past material, and I'm sure most folks do too. I actually get miffed on occasion at the "feed me because its easier than fishing for myself" crowd that seems to be popping up. Marc has stated more than once that one of his intents was to provide a mechanism to "share", well sharing is a 2 way street. Recently we had an individual get out of sorts because he didn't get a response an information in what he deemed to be an appropriate time frame...my 1st inclination was to say "pack sand", but I got beat to it by a nicer Cover.

As with Cari (cute as a puppy she is, she is ;) ) I've gotten some crazy mail too. I normally toss what I think is dumb, spam or trash.

If I am off base in my comments, please feel free to challenge me or if you agree, then let me know if you have suggestions on how to correct the problem.

Bill PflanzBill and Randy, I agree with your thoughts 110%. Some people abuse the system. Some are like parasites (there I go again, using non politically correct words)http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/omg.gif who come here and expect other people to do their work. One thing is to ask for assistance and help. Another one is to expect other people to solve ALL of their problems. May be as a way of mitigating this, we might have a sticky note reminding everyone of the SEARCH-FIRST-ASK-LATER rule and moderators should delete posts of people who abuse their right to ask too many (and dumb) questions.

Ouch, Sidney!

Aren't we here as a resource for people in our industry, especially those who may be starting out and have "dumb" questions? And in terms of abuse of the system, how can we assess someone's motivations or intentions from a posting?

I like your idea about the sticky note. That lends a helping hand to those who may not be as familiar with the site as you and I might be.

Please all – remember, part of this issue is the nature of the beast.


We will ALWAYS have folks come here that are looking for quick fixes.


We will ALWAYS have newbies coming here that don’t always understand how the board works, proper etiquette, and how to ask a question in a way that will get the response they need, how to perform a search. Part of our job here as participants and Quality Professionals is to provide these folks the proper training.


We were all new to this game at one time or another (except for Randy, he is older than dirt…LOL!!!). We must always assume the poster is asking a genuine question because they don’t know or don’t understand.



I know it is frustrating at times, but let me ask all of you this question…..


How long would you have stayed in Quality if someone (like a boss) told you to go figure it out for yourself.





Bill – I don’t think the creation of boards like the Cove have made it too easy. You will always have folks that will take shortcuts. Others will share and share and share.



Nature of this beast.

Thanks for everyone's comments so far. The moderators have done a good job of helping newbies by directing them to the correct way to search or even doing the search for them the first time. I have no problem with that type of assistance.

My original posting was meant to be for those looking for quick fixes. There is another group that still needs help in the correct way to ask for help. All of us have looked at some postings and had no clue how to respond and tried to guess what they were asking.

If Randy is older than dirt than I guess I am in good company since I believe we are the same age. As one of the "old geezer" posters who, as hard as it may be to believe can use a computer, was thinking more universally about how the Internet is now being used. I have not seen any etiquette rules for the appropriate use of the Internet. The Internet is still at least at the child stage but we all know that rules are eventually placed on us that restrict how we behave as we grow older. Whether it restricts free thinking or just corrects boorish or churlish behavior, will we see a need to builds some rules around Internet discussion boards in the future?

Bill

I don't have a problem doing a 'sticky', but the reality is I have not seen an open forum on the internet where these aspects aren't an issue. And I've not seen a forum that has solved the problem even with stickys. If there is one forum I visit where these problems are rare it's a forum for professional pilots.

In the last 24 hours I've had 3 requests for documents from here and two have been somewhat blunt - along the lines of "Send me this and that". In one case no 'please' or any such nicety. Two were for documents here in the contributor's forum. I simply e-mailed back that files in this specific forum are for financial contributors only. Sorry. There is no doubt in my mind one or more sought a way around me, probably by e-mailing or PMing someone else. That's the nature of the beast.

Even getting some people to do a Search is frustrating. At times I think we all are discouraged by folks who, in our opinion, expect too much from what is essentially an open 'library' with 'helpers'. Yet, almost every forum I visit has the same problems. Here, for example, it seems pretty far fetched for someone to ask something like "What is APQP"? There's a forum dedicated to it, there's a presentation linked to from the site home page, and it's obvious a little reading on their part would tell them all the general stuff. But people still ask that and the forum has been up for too many years for me to expect things to change significanly due to the 'human nature' factor.

When someone does this in a forum post I try to give a link to the info. One yesterday was a request in a thread for me to send the person information on APQP and MSA. It even gave an e-mail address to send things to. I deleted the e-mail address, gave a few links and that was about it. I gave a couple of links to things here and basically said 'Go read' explaining that just about everything I have is here and that they will have to 'look around' for basic info. And I'll be the first to admit that how I answer depends upon my mood, how busy I am and a couple other factors.

On the other hand, considering the number of visitors it's not a huge problem. I've seen forums where it's a lot worse. For example, even visiting the vBulletin forums can be frustrating because often the same, exact question has been asked and answered many times. I have in part tried to address the situation by retitling threads almost every day so that it's clearer what a thread is about.

If there was anything I could do to eliminate the problems I would. But as a realist I know that having an open forum on the internet is going to draw people who do not search, who want things for free and who want all their information spoon fed to them. In fact, it reminds me of school years ago. Some people did their own work, some 'borrowed' and some cheated. I'd venture to say that has not changed since I was in school.

My best advice is to do what I do - which is basically what Randy said he does - just toss 'idiot' e-mails or PMs which you consider frivilous. Turning off your e-mail is fine. On the other hand I hope we all fight the urge to be rude as well, such as in threads. It was only a few weeks ago or so that the guy beat up on us because he didn't get the information he wanted 'in real time' (with a couple of other gripes). I tried to be civil - I even apologised - but, as was discussed in the moderator's forum, I included my thoughts that this forum is not always able to meet the expectations of each and every user. I've never seen a business that can or even a charity that can meet everyone's expectations. There will always be someone who is not satisfied for one reason or another. Some folks expect an answer NOW. Some have an idea of what they believe to be 'professionalism' which is in the eyes of the beholder. Some want their work (research, whatever) done for them. Some even expect free copies of standards.

I would even be more understanding and helpful if I charged US$100 a year or such like the ASQ does. If I was making significant money off the site I'd prefer to pay moderators for helping out. As I posted in the moderator's forum I even considered paying moderators when advertising started to pay off last winter (to remind, advertising was first started on 22 December 2003) - But, Google changed their payment program last 1 April effectively halving what I made in March and February (January was so-so, but that was to be expected - it was new. I believe I posted $ numbers in the moderator's forum - I do every month or two. October was the worst so far, but the numbers (both visitors and advertising revenue) were up considerably for November with consideration to the 'election slump' and the Thanksgiving slump.

And I have seen web sites based upon the principle - pay us $xxxxx a year (month, whatever) for personal 'attention'. Some have made it and some haven't.

As for this specific forum, it's a leftover from the Contributions in exchange for access to Post Attachments - when I tried that 'business model' it was not very popular. When advertising appeared to be paying off I eliminated that requirement in all forums except this one. Anyone can post in this forum, but attachments are limited to $ Contributors. And geeze, for 25 bucks US there are a lot of attachments. Someone would be hard pressed to say there isn't 25 bucks of value in the forums alone, not to mention this specific forum. I will say I DO recognize that in some countries US$25 is a lot of money - so I even have a US$10 for 2 months option. But fewer than 5 people contributed $ last month with a few more who actually 'renewed'. Contributing $ isn't very popular, even amongst quite a few of the 'regulars'. I do understand it - If I go to a forum it is rare that I contribute $.

Anyway, I'll listen to what you think will work or help, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking we can effectively eliminate these problems.

The Internet is still at least at the child stage but we all know that rules are eventually placed on us that restrict how we behave as we grow older. Whether it restricts free thinking or just corrects boorish or churlish behavior, will we see a need to builds some rules around Internet discussion boards in the future?The internet may be at the 'child' stage, but it is still light years from what it was in 1996. And the 'rules' for forums are out there. The problem is there are so many people who are new to the internet, not to mention those that are outright 'leechers' new or not, that the only way I know to control a public forum is to make it a private forum. And some people will not 'play by the rules' no matter what you do.

I will say one thing - In the last couple of years we've practically eliminated fighting and general rudeness and I see the forums making good progress all in all. We can and will work on these aspects, but I would never go so far as to predict that we will eliminate all of what we perceive to be problems here.

As an FYI - I do plan to make a few changes - one is here http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59940 which 'suggests' existing threads for someone to look at before starting a new thread.

I am at a roadblock still with the spell checker aspect, but I just tried the Firefox spell checker and it works very nicely on my Mac in Firefox. The problem is mainly with folks who like to use the WYSIWYG editor because of the BBCodes and such. The formatting codes, which you can't see as you're writing, screw up the ones I've investigated.

I'll look at making a forum at the top which lays out some basics beyond those in the FAQ. I'll also take a look at what is in the FAQ.

Bill mentioned rules - So let's add to this thread. If any of you were going to write up a set of 'Rules' for here, what would they be and what verbiage would you use to state the rules you have in mind?

BTW - I'm moving this thread to the 'Forum Help' forum as it pretty much belongs there.

I vote for Marc to be the new President of ASQ. He recognized the bigger picture issue that I presented, spent some time thinking about what it meant, decided to make some immediate changes that would help short term and asked for help on longer term solutions. :agree1: Not to bash ASQ but we do not get the same support and actually pay dues to them on top of it.

Personally I would like for the moderators to police the threads so maybe the rules need to be developed as much for them as for the users. Marc and I have exchanged private messages in the past where I suggested a poster be contacted and "allowed" to edit their posting rather than putting the burden on Marc or the moderator. This is not to say that private messaging will always work since I remember there apparently was some off line discussions going on about a thread before a public truce was offered.

Moderator rules could be to:
1. Edit offensive postings without notification (probably in place).
2. Notify posters of etiquette violations and allow them to edit their postings (would mean more work for moderators)
3. Create and use standard responses for frequently occurring questions including a polite but firm "search for yourself".
4. Ban posters who take advantage of Marc and the rest of the Covers.

No matter what, Marc and the moderators do a great job. :applause: Sometimes the users do not always appreciate the free help and can ruin it for others that are polite and appreciative.

I have described the Internet as in the child stage. Just think what it will be like when we get to the teenager stage. :mg:

Bill Pflanz

For the sake of causing discourse and disrupting harmony... ;)

Define "offensive"

Define "etiquette"

Define "polite"

Define "firm"

:lmao:

For the sake of causing discourse and disrupting harmony Define ... ;) :lmao:


Per Webster's:

Define "offensive" - of, relating to or designed for attack.

Commentary: for Randy that includes verbal and not just military style attacks

Define "etiquette" - the conduct or procedure required by good breeding or prescribed by authority to be observed in social or official life

Commentary: I think I will pass the opportunity and stick with the definition

Define "polite" - marked by an appearance of consideration, tact, deference or courtesy

Commentary: Impolite is no consideration, tactless, no deference to others and rude

Define "firm": not weak or uncertain; having a solid or compact structure that resists stress or pressure.

Commentary: No wiggle room for those trying to circumvent the rules.

Glad to be of help on defining the terms. I couldn't resist the commentary just for you Randy. ;)

Bill Pflanz

Moderator rules could be to:
1. Edit offensive postings without notification (probably in place).Not a problem. I do from time to time2. Notify posters of etiquette violations and allow them to edit their postings (would mean more work for moderators)A good idea and preferred in some cases, but I don't think it's always necessary. It depends upon what it is (how serious and 'infraction) with consideration of whether it is an ongoing problem.3. Create and use standard responses for frequently occurring questions including a polite but firm "search for yourself".I have a few 'stock' responses and I believe there are a few in a thread in the moderator's forum. But I do try to give people a link or something and then say something to the effect of "...and you you have more specific questions, start a thread and we'll take it from there.4. Ban posters who take advantage of Marc and the rest of the Covers.Best a moderator and/or board of director decision. A relatively drastic step, but if 'necessary', not a problem. There is a feature for a 'timed' ban period. But, I suspect if someone is banned they won't be back.

As to:

Define "offensive"
Define "etiquette"
Define "polite"
Define "firm"

I was going to use a courtroom analogy. If you go in and you're the defendant, what language and amount of decorum would you use? Do you try to be diplomatic and precise?

If you're a cowboy you'll tell the judge and jury to go take a flying leap - Which may worsen your situation.

If you want to 'get off' you use some diplomacy in your language and actions.

And let's not forget this thread: http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7759

1. Edit offensive postings without notification (probably in place).Yes, more or less. Any clear cut cases are dealt with as soon as they are spotted. There is however great variation in the perception of what is offensive. As a consequence we often discuss actions among the moderators before we act. We have the option to temporarily disable a post while we discuss it. I have to say though, that those cases are few and far between these days.
2. Notify posters of etiquette violations and allow them to edit their postings (would mean more work for moderators)Oh, we do... I realize it may not be obvious, but there is a lot going on behind the scenes, in order not to unnecessarily step on toes in public (which generally makes it worse). Usually, it's down to simple misunderstandings and/or cultural differences.
3. Create and use standard responses for frequently occurring questions including a polite but firm "search for yourself".Yep. That may not be obvious either, but we do have some canned responses. Those are often persionalized and tailored to accomodate for a certain situation, so they may not be recognizable as such.
4. Ban posters who take advantage of Marc and the rest of the Covers.Well, now... If I recall correctly, there is not a single user on the Banned list. There is that option, but I'm very reluctant to use it. People who are not happy with us will usually go away without being banned.

This is a good discussion. Keep the ideas coming, they are a great help to the moderators.

/Claes

Claes, you could probably do well as Secretary General of the UN. I've been on a few different forums over the years and have not found your equal yet. :agree1: I'm not around quite as much anymore, but it seems you and the other mods have a very good handle on things. So, to all you mods, keep up the good work. :yes: