We have just had a fire, well more of a fire incident, in our warehouse!
Its origin was faulty electrical system. Although this is sure to be treated in the realm of safety protocolls, I was thinking it could be a matter for the QMS. Nonconforming infrastructure? or am I just :bonk:

Cheers!

Of course, a fire in the warehouse can be a problem affecting quality....and I guess you could initiate a corrective action...but I would probably only go that route if you feel that the faulty system was due to poor workmanship and failure to follow the prescribed systems/procedures (internally) or the failure of a supplier (contractor) to meet your requirements.

It's hard to say without some more information. Age of bldg/electrical system, is your system following some type of inspection (preventive maintenance) scheme, etc.?

If product was impacted, I would say definitely, document the problem and all actions taken to ensure that the customer is impacted as little as possible, or what type of arrangements you will make with the customer because of loss of product/delivery schedules.

Your safety system should make provisions for investigation and correction of causes of incidents, but there is nothing that says you can't integrate your systems.

We have just had a fire, well more of a fire incident, in our warehouse!
Its origin was faulty electrical system. Although this is sure to be treated in the realm of safety protocolls, I was thinking it could be a matter for the QMS. Nonconforming infrastructure? or am I just :bonk:

Cheers!

I once had one of the internal auditors, who was working for me at the time, write-up the shipping dock for animal (raccoon) feces on the dock. She wrote it as a nonconformity against internal requirements for cleanliness in the work areas. :)

So I can't really see a problem with handling such incidents through the QMS, after all we have been proselytizing others to the belief that ISO 9001 applies to the entire system - not just product related processes.

It wasnt so much the fire in itself but the fact that roof structures (burning!) fell down on top of plastic chemical containers. The warehouse staff put out the fire pronto! And forutunatly no adverse effect has ben noted. However if things had gone in a different direction all sorts of bad things would have followed.

And although, yes this is very much an issue for other "protocolls" still the QMS must assert itself. However Im a bit insecure if this incident is just such an example. But then again, what the heck, Ill go that route untill someone else says, not to! :smokin:

Cheers!

We have just had a fire, well more of a fire incident, in our warehouse!
Its origin was faulty electrical system. Although this is sure to be treated in the realm of safety protocolls, I was thinking it could be a matter for the QMS. Nonconforming infrastructure? or am I just :bonk:

Cheers!

Just a thought, you may want to determine if you need to notify your Registrar if your are Certified. I know we had to when we had our fires, yes fires plural. Don't ask!

Obviously you can take you QMS and Non-Conforming/Audit reports to any Extreme deemed necessary.

Did your company have THAT building built for them? (i.e. new facility)?
Is the poor wiring within YOUR control?
Who is responsible for the wiring?
If common sense preventative maintenance was not performed on the building, I'd be more worried about OHSA than your QMS...

Just my $0.002 worth (no that's not a typo!)

I never had experience with this, so this is JM(unexperienced)O...

I would be reluctant to write this us as a nonconforming under the QMS unless I could prove that someone in your company was negligent -- and even then I'd be careful depending on the culture of your company. Some accidents and things just cannot be reasonably anticipated and prevented. Because something happened it does not mean someone could/should have prevented it. Now, if someone plugged in 30 illegal extention cords in series and strung them across the plant to power something, or had an untrained (in electricity) secretary run 240V, 50 amp service to a machine, then something is very wrong. But I'd think there are enough people seriously concerned about this fire, and acting on it, that it might just look bad and create bad feelings if you came in and got the QMS involved in it and issued a nonconformance report or something. That might be rubbing salt in the wound and it might adversely affect how you and the QMS is seen in the future. Just something to consider...

Ooops Trolle,

You are on to something, and in ISO 9001:2000 I would say that 5.1a & 6.3a are the clauses you're looking for (See also ISO 9004:2000).

5.1a: communicating to the organization the importance of meeting customer as well as statutory and regulatory requirements,

6.3a: The organization shall determine, provide and maintain the infrastructure needed to achieve conformityto product
requirements. Infrastructure includes, as applicable
a) buildings, workspace and associated utilities,

There are a few things to consider, though:

1. You can do your level best to prevent a fire from occurring and still have one. Freak accidents can and will happen given time. Could you have done more to prevent the incident?

2. You will have legal reqirements to consider. We both know about Swedish law being tough in that respect. Do you have a Health & Safety management system going? If so, you can point your QMS in that direction. (I do). If not, you still have to follow the letter of the law (not to mention the guidelines from your insurance company. They will certainly want to havea say in this matter).

3. Do you have an EMS? Clause 4.4.7 in ISO 14001 (Emergency preparedness and response) is quite strict about taking precautions, and a fire is clearly not good for the environment. Same again: If you have it, you can point the QMS in that direction.

/Claes

Just a thought, you may want to determine if you need to notify your Registrar if your are Certified. I know we had to when we had our fires, yes fires plural. Don't ask!
What was the reason for you to have to notify your registrar?

I don't know that I would call it a nonconformance, but having had a client lose their building and 18 months of business due to a fire, I can see preventive actions or continuous improvement ideas here.

What would have happened if there was nobody around when the fire started? Are there alarms, sprinklers, etc? What if the chemical barrels had caught fire - explosoin? toxic fumes? Are plans in place to deal with hazardous situations? Are employees properly trained in fire control? What caused electrical system to fail? Could this happen in another area of the facility?

I would, at a minimum, initiate a preventive action to make sure some of these things are addressed. If you need to tie it to ISO, the section 6 requirements already stated make sense.

Tom

What was the reason for you to have to notify your registrar?

Lost a bunch of equipment, forced us to move into a new building, plus we are working with medical devices.

Lost a bunch of equipment, forced us to move into a new building, plus we are working with medical devices.

Did the fire affect your ability to supply your Customer?

Did the fire affect your ability to supply your Customer?

Most certianly did. The department that had one of the fires was shut down for about a month, while we repaired the building and purchased new equipment, did the IQOQPQ etc..

...did the IQOQPQ etc..


Did the WHAT? Ya lost me on that one. :confused:

Did the WHAT? Ya lost me on that one. :confused:

IQ=Installation Qualification

OQ=Operational Qualification

PQ=Performance Qualification

What was the reason for you to have to notify your registrar?

Couldn't you also show that the QMS was working by the fact that the fire was put out quickly because your employees were trained in using the fire extinquishers. Your company also made adjustments to their daily operating procedures to assure that the safety of the employees and the quality of the product was not effected by this fire. JMO, but I think that you have to also look at what was done right. (the glass if half full, not half empty)

Couldn't you also show that the QMS was working by the fact that the fire was put out quickly because your employees were trained in using the fire extinquishers. Your company also made adjustments to their daily operating procedures to assure that the safety of the employees and the quality of the product was not effected by this fire. JMO, but I think that you have to also look at what was done right. (the glass if half full, not half empty)

Good point.
We train employees in how to use fire extinguishers here.
We also have an evaulation procedures and safety program in place.
So the half full part also applies to a "safe" fire situation.
If everyone (that possibly can) get out of a fire "safe" and alive then that part of our training was effective. (Not something you hope to ever prove in reality).

As far as not fulfilling orders due to a fire or damaged machine/fixtures/etc that affect a product/customer you can only do some much. How many MANUFACTING companies realistically have "back-up" or "fire-proof" equipment? (Not counting computer data). Unless you work with flammable material, I don't think most companys will apply "fire" to their FMEA... (Or tornado, or earthquake... etc)

We may have to do our VERY best to satisfy our customers, but EVERYthing can not be accounted for by a QMS.

Couldn't you also show that the QMS was working by the fact that the fire was put out quickly because your employees were trained in using the fire extinquishers. Your company also made adjustments to their daily operating procedures to assure that the safety of the employees and the quality of the product was not effected by this fire. JMO, but I think that you have to also look at what was done right. (the glass if half full, not half empty)

That is if the fire was caused as a result of faulty wiring or something along those lines. Now in our case it was caused by stupidity, lets place plastic bags behind an oven!

Unless you work with flammable material, I don't think most companys will apply "fire" to their FMEA... (Or tornado, or earthquake... etc)



For my previously mentioned client, we did include fire in an Environmental FMEA (for 14001). They got some bad press after the fire about toxic fumes (did not really exist), so we decided to clearly state in a FMEA what reactions could be expected for each chemical in fire, mixed with water, etc.

We have just had a fire, well more of a fire incident, in our warehouse!
Its origin was faulty electrical system. Although this is sure to be treated in the realm of safety protocolls, I was thinking it could be a matter for the QMS. Nonconforming infrastructure? or am I just :bonk:

Cheers!
Without going into what others have already thorougly covered, here is another idea about fire & the QMS --

Is this an opportunity for a "lessons learned" session? Discuss what went right because of the QMS (and the safety program!), and what could be improved. This type of after-action review can often be very beneficial.

My last disaster was a computer server crash during an audit! We made a fairly smooth transition to the manual backup system while the server was rebuilt. The team review after everything was back online helped because it was an opportunity to praise what went right, and we also identified a few problems that have now been addressed.

10 days before our initial ISO audit (to the 87 rev!) in 1993, our warehouse burned to the ground. To avoid fines for rescheduling the audit, I had to send pictures of the fire to the registrar. There's one reason for telling the registrar!

The fire was started by a roofer who was welding something on the roof. The best thing I can say, is that the warehouse manager had done "Right to Know" training with the roofing staff before they started, and the warehouse crew knew exactly what to do. Two were volunteer firemen with a local fire company, drove to the firehouse, 5 minutes away, and returned with a pumper that they trained on the chemical room. Thankfully nothing spilled, and we got a clean bill of health from the DEC.

If anything ever underscored the need for:
1. Good training and
2. A disaster recovery plan
this was it.

If anything ever underscored the need for:
1. Good training and
2. A disaster recovery plan
this was it.

Hello RosieA,

Please, what is a "disaster recovery plan"? Can you give me an example.

Cheers!

[QUOTE=RosieA]10 days before our initial ISO audit (to the 87 rev!) in 1993, our warehouse burned to the ground. To avoid fines for rescheduling the audit, I had to send pictures of the fire to the registrar. There's one reason for telling the registrar!QUOTE]

Rosie,

I was contracted to my last company (1996) as the QM only to find out on my first day that they had forgotten (neglected) to tell me that the last Quality Guy had left because someone had started a fire in his office and destroyed the entire electonic version of his system + paper records, his PC and backup disks plus some other documents. We had an audit coming up and the auditor asked me about document control and records :bonk: . Lets just say it was a nightmare trying to explain everything to him. The office had been rebuilt and painted with new furniture etc but I had to actually show him some material that had been burnt to prove the fact.

Greg B

Trolle,

A Disaster Recovery plan (or Contingency Plan) is a plan for recovery from something catastrophic, like a fire or storm damage. The basics are covered in several good web site, such as: http://www.nedcc.org/plam3/tleaf33.htm and
http://www.business-continuity-world.com/

This got a lot of attention after 9/11, but still, companies fail to plan.

If your computer system is destroyed, how will you recover?

If important paper records are destroyed, how will you reconstruct them?

In our fire, we lost all of our inventory, so step #1, done before the fire was even out, was to run an inventory of what was in this warehouse, and what customer orders were in process against it. The fire happened Friday afternoon. By Saturday morning we knew what had been lost and what orders were open against it. Our wonderful staff got going on diverting what they could to other warehouse locations, and getting orders in the system for replacement stock. We contacted all our vendors and asked for their help, and got it. We had to set up a new interim warehouse (in our main conference room) until we could find a new warehouse location. We did a lot of DOD work and had to go through the process of determining what orders had priority ratings and had to go ahead of others. We had to contact Fed-EX and UPS and get replacement equipment. Other companies in town offered everything from office furniture to network cable.

By Monday morning, we were shipping and receiving again. Redundant computer data bases made this easier to do. If we hadn't had a plan, this would have been impossible to accomplish so quickly. Most customers never knew anything happened.

And, by the way, all of our top managers were enroute home from a meeting 8 hours away when this happened. The whole mess was handled by mid-level managers and hourly employees. I have never been prouder of a work force than I was of this team. They were wonderful.

And Greg, I'm not at all surprised that you had to dig up charred evidence for the ISO auditor. Besides the pictures, I had to show them melted manuals also.

Trolle,

A Disaster Recovery plan (or Contingency Plan) is a plan for recovery from something catastrophic, like a fire or storm damage. The basics are covered in several good web site, such as: http://www.nedcc.org/plam3/tleaf33.htm and
http://www.business-continuity-world.com/



I would have belived a disaster recovery plan is the next phase, coming after the more momentary contigency plan? (Have not had time to check your links, most certainly will do so!)
Anyway it was hartening to read about the business comunity coming together and the efforts of your collegues. Im sure there is more than one messsage here to be digested.

Cheers. :bigwave:

---X---Anyway it was hartening to read about the business comunity coming together and the efforts of your collegues. Im sure there is more than one messsage here to be digested.

Cheers. :bigwave:

I agree. It's great hearing a tale like that. And you know what? I've seen it happen too. (Not to me personally, for which I'm most grateful). As a matter of fact this kind of reaction seems to be more the rule than the exception one might expect it to be.

So: If disaster strikes, do not give up Never ever do that, because in the end there may still be a way out of the mess you are in.

/Claes