You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?

8.2.1 - Customer Satisfaction

As one of the measurements of the performance of the quality management system the organization shall monitor information relating to customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined.

5.6.2 Review Input

The input to management review shall include information on
...
b) customer feedback
...

You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?

I'll give it a go.

Without scouring the standard, the closest I can come would be 8.3 under c) - Records of the nature of nonconformities and any subsequent actions taken, including concessions obtained, shall be maintained (See 4.2.4).

I take that to mean both internally, as well as, externally (customer complaints) detected nonconformances.

Bill

7.2.3 Customer communication
The organization shall determine and implement effective arrangements for communicating with customers in relation to
a) product information,
b) enquiries, contracts or order handling, including amendments, and
c) customer feedback, including customer complaints.

8.2.1 - Customer Satisfaction

As one of the measurements of the performance of the quality management system the organization shall monitor information relating to customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined.

But where does it state that the method(s) obtained and used MUST be Customer Complaints? The Organization might use surveys or phone conversations or trip reports or some other means.

I'd question the ability of the Organization to effectively deal with Customer Complaints and communicate the resolution back to the Customer...sounds like 7.2.3(c).

Is 8.3 just too obvious the answer? A Customer Complaint *is* Nonconforming Product at my Organization. "Records of the nature of nonconformities and any subsequent actions taken, include concessions obtained, shall be maintained."

Hey, Sidney, we posted rather closely...ya beat me by a few minutes! :vfunny:

But where does it state that the method(s) obtained and used MUST be Customer Complaints? The Organization might use surveys or phone conversations or trip reports or some other means.

Customer complaints aren't really a method. They are information relating to the customer's perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. Positive feedback is the same thing.

Now, keeping a log of strictly customer complaints - that is a method of tracking (which I perceive as another word for monitoring in this context). This is the part that is up to us to decide.

Customer complaints aren't really a method. They are information relating to the customer's perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. Positive feedback is the same thing.

Now, keeping a log of strictly customer complaints - that is a method of tracking (which I perceive as another word for monitoring in this context). This is the part that is up to us to decide.

Yes, tracking of Customer Complaints is, in my opinion, a method to monitor Customer Satisfaction and, if it was used, would probably address 8.2.1.

What I'm stating is that just because Marc's ficticious (???) company doesn't use that method, that doesn't mean they're not addressing 8.2.1. They could be using other methods like I stated in my earlier post and Marc has just omitted that information.

I feel like I'm back in my Auditor course again. Never assume. Never guess. Audit only on the facts. In this case, all we know is that they do not track Customer Complaints. We do NOT know if they use some other method to monitor Customer Satisfaction. Which is why I like 7.2.3(c) and 8.3.

Marc, what haven't you told us? Are there any other methods in place to track Customer Satisfaction? What process is followed when a Customer complains?

That's not quite what I meant. Information relating to customer perception... encompasses positive and negative (complaints). This would include PPM, evaluation reports, etc. Not just complaints.

The method we use to monitor this information is up to us. Be it a log, surveys, phone calls, whatever. The point I was trying to make was that customer complaints are information relating to customer perception. They must be monitored somehow, along with the positive feedback.

You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "track." ISO 9001 doesn't say you have to "track" customer complaints. It says you have to
• 7.2.3c - effectively communicate with customers regarding complaints.
• 8.2.1 - monitor customer satisfaction (9000 says customer complaints are an indicator of low customer satisfaction).
• 8.5.2 - review customer complaints and evaluate the need for taking corrective action on them.

So, you must monitor, evaluate, and communicate with customers regarding them. When corrective actions are needed, records are required. When you put all this together, does that equal tracking?

You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?

I would say, "Okay....You show me your documentation regarding Customer Complaints. I'll decide if it's sufficient to meet the requirements." ;) :smokin:

Marc

Personally I would never have asked the question in the first place, because, as you say, there is no specific requirement to 'track' complaints.

I would start by 'how do you monitor customer satisfaction' and see where that lead me.

I then might ask 'how do you handle non-conforming product' and see where that goes.

Track is an unusual word to use :)

8.5.2 Corrective Action
a) reviewing nonconfomities (including customer complaints)

5.6.2 Management Review Input
d) STATUS of preventive & corrective actions.

If you do not TRACK, how can you determine & report upon the STATUS?

I guess I should jump in here.

The question came up in a conversation Marc and I had during an internal audit today.

Since I am at home I don't have the standards in front of me but my position in the discussion was:

7.2.3(?) Speaks to “communication”
This we have done by assigning each customer to an account manager who is responsible for all dealings with this customer from quoting through shipment. The customer knows this is the person to talk to about any issue. If their account manager is unavailable, they speak to another who is covering, or to the company president. (they are all within about 30 feet of each other.)

8.3(?)
As far as measurables are concerned, we have conducted a customer survey recently, and we track customer returns. (Defective product)

So we have effective communication and we measure customer perception of customer satisfaction. Therefore we have met the requirements of the standard. Anyway that’s my take.

I’m the first to admit that our systems need some more work (what doesn’t) But one of the ideas here is to match ISO to what we currently do as much as possible.

James

You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?

I favor Sidney's reply: I would then tell you to show me how you address
7.2.3
c) customer feedback, including customer complaints.

I would want to see how you distinguish between the two and records of both. To me, that's tracking. Maybe all minor complaints aren't officially "tracked", but there should be a trail to them. All of them. Even the ones determined not to be of significant importance. The major complaints, as Martin has said, could fall into CA. But, there should be a trail you can "track". Then I would ask "Who makes the determination as to importance, if you choose not to "track" them?" Substitute "track" with "record" and we're almost there. No?

Tracking customer complaints would enable you to verify again in the future if that complaint coming from a customer was a recurrence. And in that case, there would be a need to review the preventive action that was been implemented during that time.

Best regards,
Raffy

7.2.3 Customer communication
The organization shall determine and implement effective arrangements for communicating with customers in relation to
a) product information,
b) enquiries, contracts or order handling, including amendments, and
c) customer feedback, including customer complaints.

Sidney you hit the nail right on the head.

The real question is why would you not track your customer compliants??

Agreed.

However, I would like to reframe the question somewhat.

You are auditing me, and you ask if I maintain a customer "complaint log". I say no. What would you say to me?

In my opinion 7.2.3 has nothing to do with "tracking" customer complaints.
7.2.3 has nothing to do with monitoring - tracking - or measuring.
7.2.3 specifically requires that "effective arrangements for COMMUNICATING with customers" be implemented.

As far as "Tracking" (or measuring) goes:
8.2.1 specifies that we "MONITOR information relating to customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined."

5.6.2 Management Review requires "Information on customer feedback"

I venture to say that not one of us tracks every customer complaint that comes in. At some point the decision has to be made which ones are important enough to warrant documenting and which ones are not.

If I have determined that, for my system, trackable customer complaints = customer rejections and I track and report on these periodically to upper management, then I have met the requirements of 8.2.1.

The kernal that started this discussion is the fact that we do not keep a customer complaint log which seems to be the most common method used. As the discussion progressed, neither of us was convinced by the others arguments. That is how we wound up here at the mount.

Let's briefly transcend the 'what is best for the company' aspect.

My concern is that when I ask the question: Can you tell me whether your have more customer complaints this year than last year, the answer is no.

On the other hand I don't see where the words require the company to know that.

So far I have not audited any company which did not track ('monitor') customer complaints in some way. Some have a notepad. Some an excel spreadsheet, some have it as a part of their corrective action system. And I do want to remind this is not 16949. But again, if we parse the actual words, I can't find anyplace where knowing whether customer complaints are increasing or decreasing, that they be recorded or such.

Part of my heartburn here is that it is hard for me to 'accept' setting the threshold for what a 'valid' customer complaint is as only customer rejects (product).

Part of my heartburn here is that it is hard for me to 'accept' setting the threshold for what a 'valid' customer complaint is as only customer rejects (product).

What? :confused:

Agreed.

However, I would like to reframe the question somewhat.

You are auditing me, and you ask if I maintain a customer "complaint log". I say no. What would you say to me?

The kernal that started this discussion is the fact that we do not keep a customer complaint log which seems to be the most common method used. As the discussion progressed, neither of us was convinced by the others arguments. That is how we wound up here at the mount.

The question asked in the beginning wasn't if you kept a "Complaint" Log? I'm sure the answers would have been as different as the new reframed question. If I didn't maintain one, so what? An example : " No we don't. Here's how and where we track Customer Complaints." ;) :smokin:

What? :confused:
If a company considers the only valid customer complaint to be a product failure (return), what does one call late delivery? What does one call it if an install person is rude and the customer calls to complain? There are many other possible things a customer can legitimately complain about.

I've never seen a company define customer complaints so narrowly so it's hard for me to 'accept', if you will.

I think most are in agreement that the requirement most closely related to the original line of questioning is 7.2.3 c)... but as I see it, the piece that I would look for conformance to is 7.2.3 "The organization shall determine and implement effective arrangements ..." etc. This might lead us to take a step back and ask "what arrangements have you implemented to communicate customer complaints?" and "can you show me how these arrangements are determined to be effective?"

What I have found is that some Customers do not care what kind of system we have to handle Complaints. Some Customers want us to use their system (yes, this mostly applies to our Automotive Customers - but could be for any customer). In this case, the "effective arrangement" would be that we respond in the way the customer requests, and use their forms, and respond in the timeframe and method they prefer (phone call, fax, e-mail, etc., or all of the above). E

PS: As far as complaint validity, I think it is up to an organization to make that judgement call. In the customer's eyes, it is and may always be considered a complaint. But when all is said and done, after a root-cause investigation has been completed, we may not find fault because we met all of the stated requirements. These types of validity issues may arrise where a customer has an implied requirement that they may not yet have communicated to a supplier. To be able to "... implement effective arrangements...", I think it is in everyone's best interest to understand as many of the customers requirements as possible; and likewise to have customers understand the organizations capabilities. This mutual understanding would hopefully lead to fewer issues with the validity of a complaint. Unfortunately, this understanding is hard to keep consistent across all lines of communication between an organization and it's customers.:(

Whether or not you keep a log to track CC's doesn't bother me at this point. My next question would then be how would demonstrate that you are analyzing CC's for possible trends? If you could provide me with Objective Evidence that you are indeed analyzing the data with the overall intent to continually improve, I think you're okay. You could use monthly pareto charts, or tally charts, no where do I recall the use of the word "log" being used in the Standard. *YOU* determine the method that works for you...but it must work!...it must be effective.

As an Auditor, I am not bothered by the lack of a log...IF you can prove to me in an another manner that CC's are being analyzed.

For the record, at my Organization we use an electronic system to record ALL Customer Complaints at all locations. Queries can be entered to determine how the facilities compare to each other.

Complaints are broken down into four types:


Invoicing
Service - Mill
Service - Sales
Quality


Within each of the four types there are several classifications, specific to each type.

It's a new system compared to how we used to track and we're still fixing the bugs, but it's great to see where the errors are occuring both in Production areas and Sales.

If a company considers the only valid customer complaint to be a product failure (return), what does one call late delivery? What does one call it if an install person is rude and the customer calls to complain? There are many other possible things a customer can legitimately complain about.

I've never seen a company define customer complaints so narrowly so it's hard for me to 'accept', if you will.

Ok I see now! :D

JMHO, but I define as a complaint is any expression of dis-satisfaction from the client. Now, with that said some will become items that need to have an action taken and others will go into the no action required file but they will be kept for trending purposes. In any case we will get back to the client and let them know what we are going to do. We may go back to thema and say we investigated the situation and there is nothing we can do or we have done A,B,C to ensure that this will not happen again. There maybe times we say we have taken your comments into consideration blah, blah, blah, as long as you take some action the customer will be happy, as long as you don't ignore them.

I know this is off topic a bit, but how would you feel if you called and complained and never heard anything back?

"Maybe all minor complaints aren't officially "tracked", "

Since ISO is based around the 8 quality management principles, and the first principle is "Customer Focus" how can any complaint from the customer be anything than a major problem?

Although I am looking at this from an automotive standpoint, where ALL customer complaints must be formally investigated & reported on in their format.

One more comment on the validity of a complaint. Even for complaints which our organization determines to be not valid, we sometimes require that corrective action is taken.

I agree with Shaun in that - in the customer's eyes "how can any complaint from the customer be anything (other) than a major problem?"

There have been quite a few quotes I have heard throughout the years, and I'm not sure where this one originated, but it was a favorite quote for one of my favorite Trainers - "Perception is Truth in the minds of the perceiver"... If a customer sees something as a problem, then the supplier should treat it as if it is a major problem. This kind of explains my first sentence... though we may not agree with the actual problem the customer sees, we need to take them serious, and take action to satisfy their complaint.:cool: E

Ok I see now! :D

JMHO, but I define as a complaint is any expression of dis-satisfaction from the client. Now, with that said some will become items that need to have an action taken and others will go into the no action required file but they will be kept for trending purposes. In any case we will get back to the client and let them know what we are going to do. We may go back to thema and say we investigated the situation and there is nothing we can do or we have done A,B,C to ensure that this will not happen again. There maybe times we say we have taken your comments into consideration blah, blah, blah, as long as you take some action the customer will be happy, as long as you don't ignore them.

I know this is off topic a bit, but how would you feel if you called and complained and never heard anything back?

We do the same thing. The adage of "The Customer is always right" isn't always the case. We've had situations where Customers have knowingly bought downgraded material and then complained that it did not meet product characteristics! :frust: Delivery was fine. Packaging was fine. When a Customer puchases secondary product they are made aware of WHY the product was downgraded. To knowingly purchase it and then complain, well, like ISO GUY, that data is kept for trending purposes.

Amazingly, ISO GUY, your last question was something our new Sales force (the old Sales force from one of the other two companies we merged with), didn't quite understand. They did not see what the big deal was when a Customer called up and no response was ever provided back.....until, that is, I put them in the place of the Customer. I asked them how they felt when they had a question or a concern and the person they asked never got back to them. Terms like "frustration", "anger", "disillusioned" were bandied about. You could see the proverbial light bulb go on then. :)

You are auditing me. You ask if I track customer complaints. I say no. I say show me where it specifically says I have to track customer complaints.

What are you going to tell me?

Tracking customer complaints is not specifically required. You have to deal with them (8.5.2), and you have to monitor information relating to customer satisfaction (8.2.1) and shall analyze data relating to customer satisfaction (8.4) and consider customer feedback in management review (5.6.2), but no where are you required to "track" customer complaints. It probably makes sense, and makes the other requirements easier to fulfull, but tracking is not required.

Track is an unusual word to use
Ummm, well.... How about how do you identify valid customer complaints, how are they handled, can you show me whether you have more or less this year to last year, or something like that.

I used the word 'TRACK' because of how I see the spec. A company is supposed to be aware of customer complaints, right? Just like with FedEx or UPS - I want to be able to see at any time the status of a response to a valid customer complaint at any given point in time. I call this tracking. Just as a company has to be able to 'track' a corrective action response.

And to track a complaint, there has to be a system where they are recorded.

The important aspect really is the existence of a trigger which kicks in to make 'upper management' aware (which assumes they will then take positive action {tee hee hee!}) when inaction (usually the person who has to respond) stalls the process (doesn't do squat).

In this thread, however, my concern really is more with respect to the threshold of what is defined as a valid customer complaint. If it is only returned product (as an example), it implies late delivery is not a valid customer complaint. Can this be? Or can the company 'win' by citing Webster's definitions?

OK.
I will cede that we need to track customer complaints more fully and formally than what we are.
Based on the fact that under our current system, a trackable customer comlaint = Customer return, what would the audit finding be written against?

8.5.1 Continual improvement states that the org shall continually improve throught the use of Q policy, Q objectives, Audit Results, analysis of data, corrective and preventive actions and management review.


James

Ummm, well.... How about how do you identify valid customer complaints, how are they handled, can you show me whether you have more or less this year to last year, or something like that.



Marc, I think you have hinted at something that is oft times overlooked. Validity. We put everything into a database. It goes in as a claim (money/product needs to change hands); a complaint (for whatever reason, the customer doesn't like something and would like for us to make a change); or feedback, which could be you guys give us the best product in the world.

From there we do an investigation (and the depth to which we investigate it is dependent upon the categories outlined above, the risks involved, etc) and part of that investigation is to assess the validity of the issue.

As far as tracking goes, each of us probably has a different definition of how we "track" complaints, but yes we do need to show that they were looked at, assessed, corrective/preventive actions done where applicable, and show what we do with the info. Your "show me whether you have more or less..." I think that is the intention of the standard. JMHO

Marc

I am sure you can 'win', if you deem gaining an ISO9001 certificate winning, by defining customer complaints as whatever you want.

Remember however that customer complaints are just one process measure (and not a terribly accurate one).

Also bear in mind that an increase in recorded customer complaints might actually be an improvement if the complaints were always there in the past just never recorded.

Anyways we have an official cusotomer complaints system, we also have an RMA process, we also have a technical enquiries process. Now both the RMA and TE processes are full of issues that could provide good process performance data, and many instances that do need proper root cause analysis, and corrective/preventive action.

Often a TE can evolve into an RMA, so in order not to generate a third piece of paper in the official non-conformance system I intend to modify the TE and RMA forms to include root cause analysis and corrective/preventive action. The faults reported in these systems will use the same fault codes as the official non-conformances so that I can easily merge data from each source. Each system will also be monitored for response times.

So although the TE and RMA systems are not called 'customer complaints' i think I can show that customer issues and feedback are 'tracked' for want of a better word ;)