Hello anybody and everybody...

Here's a good documentation question... Can two exact forms be placed in one centralized location with two different QA-P-#'s on them....

An example.... Credit request QA-P-1000-01-F1
Credit request QA-P-1000-01-LF1

If someone could please give me some info regarding this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,
Marcy-

Hi Marcy,

What is the difference between the 2 forms? Since they have different numbers, I assume there is a slight difference between the 2.

An example.... Credit request QA-P-1000-01-F1
Credit request QA-P-1000-01-LF1


I am just guessing here....the first one is the standard form, and the second is the long form? If so, I would answer your question as "Why not?".

If you could provide more info, I might be better able to answer your question.

Regards,
CarolX

Can two exact forms be placed in one centralized location with two different QA-P-#'s on them....

Simple answer: Sure why not?
Simple Question: If they are EXACT copies, why would you want two copies with two different form numbers?

If CarolX assumed right and their is a long and short version of the form then the are NOT EXACT and should have two different numbers.

More details please.

Hello CarolX and Bob...

These are two exact same forms.... The info within them are different....

I suggested that they need to be slightly different to show validation for the two different QA-P-#'s or share the same QA-P-#'s....

What would your response be to that?? Do you still think that the two "exact" forms should be placed in the same location but with two different QA-P-#'s??

M-

One of the forms is within a larger spreadsheet that contains that form plus other forms.....

The other exact form is used outside of the larger spreadsheet.

So if it get this right:
The 2 forms are identical, but are used for two different tasks, and the 2nd version of the form is used with additional forms...

If the short version is used and printed all by it self, and the larger one is use in conjunction with the other forms i would recommend:

A) Only use the larger spreadsheet and use the "exact" form and "other" forms AS NEEDED.
B) Keep the seperate forms and form numbers. Not a problem just harder to update 2 at the same time.
Either or will work "within" ISO as long as the user knows which one to use when.

Hello Marc....

The problem is.. That these two forms are in the same location, and our "end" user would use what ever is "easier" for them.. Even if it's not the correct one to use....

What I mean is... If asked by a BSI auditor to look at a customer file, and within that customer file, all the forms within this larger shreadsheet is used except this one.. The one he used is the "other" exact form.. BUT.. The other forms have the same and correct controlled # on it, except this one....

Being an auditor.. I would question why the person didn't use the correct form....

I just need a good justification as to "Why" two of the "exact" form should NOT have two different controlled #'s on it. Can you help me out??? I've looked through the elements.... and I've found things that would somewhat agree with me, but nothing on the spot.... Would a BSI auditor "hit" us with a NC??

Thanks,
Marcy-

Marcy,

I agree with Bob. Keep them numbered seperately. Just as long as everyone know how to use them, you should be ok.

Carol

The problem is.. That these two forms are in the same location, and our "end" user would use what ever is "easier" for them.. Even if it's not the correct one to use....

With this statement I'd be more worried with the person using the wrong form or form "package".

I go back to my earlier suggestion. Use one spreadsheet (with the form in question) and educate/document HOW/WHEN people should be using which form(S).

If you WANT 2 copies of the SAME form with 2 different numbers, go right ahead, but good luck teaching people when to use each one. If you update the standalone one, do you need to update the bundled one? If yes why bother with two seperate forms?

Note: I'm assuming you're using something like Excel with multiple tabs and each form is on one of the tabs...

I have to agree with Bob on this one.
If the "bundled" form is updated how does it effect the "stand alone" form?

That these two forms are in the same location, and our "end" user would use what ever is "easier" for them.. Even if it's not the correct one to use....

If this is your only justification for multiple forms then, as an auditor, it would raise a few questions for me. The first being where is the discipline to operate inside your system?

There is nothing that states you can't operate the way you currently are. What does your procedure state? As long as you spell it out somewhere and can prove it is followed then there is no NC. It has been my experience that when this type of form sharing is allowed that 1 doc will be updated and the other is forgotten. Or, the process for filling out the form is changed but it is not used that way on the other, therefore violating the procedure. These are very minor issues, but can leave questions in an external auditors mind as to the validity of your system.

I believe, whole heartedly, in a flexible system. It can't be so rigid that it makes more work for people. But, the system should govern the employees, the employees should not govern the system.

Once upon a time I created some Excel workbooks that contained forms that related to each other and allowed the information from one or more of the forms to carry over to the others. (like filling in header information or financial data, etc.)

But there were occasions for just a single form to be used by itself.And it might be located in the same directory all by itself without the rest of the workbook attached.

What I did was to number the whole workbook with a control number (such as QA1086) and then referenced each individual sheet of the workbook as ex. QA1086a (for the 1st page), QA1086b (2nd page) etc.

There was no confusion with anyone that whether the page was used alone, or as part of a workbook, it was the same page.

*slinking back into the lurking mode*

First, welcome back Lucinda!

Next, I think that I would prefer something like Lucinda's method. The form whether used alone or used with the associated forms would always be numbered the same. If you don't need form b, c and d, so be it. If all of this is electronic, just put a generic statement on the rest of the workbook pages stating that the forms were intentinally left blank for this particular "job". If all you are doing is opening a "template" and printing and filling out the pages you need (and each has its own form number) none of control issues apply unless you have stated that those forms must be filled out in conjuction with one another.

It will create confusion, why not use the one called by the instruction. There is a violation there, same form with different form number??