I recently started a new job as the ISO Coordinator for a small company. This company has been using a form of document control for several years and we are now in the process of building a QMS based on the requirements of ISO 9001:2000. I need some advice on how to handle the current documents with respect to training. Some of the documents are at version 3 or 4 and the company has no record of training on the previous versions. If we reset the version to 0 our record control will be affected. If we do not reset the version, we will not be able to provide proof of training on all versions.

Any advice is appreciated. :)

I recently started a new job as the ISO Coordinator for a small company. This company has been using a form of document control for several years and we are now in the process of building a QMS based on the requirements of ISO 9001:2000. I need some advice on how to handle the current documents with respect to training. Some of the documents are at version 3 or 4 and the company has no record of training on the previous versions. If we reset the version to 0 our record control will be affected. If we do not reset the version, we will not be able to provide proof of training on all versions.

Any advice is appreciated. :)

Why do you have to provide "proof of training on all versions"? Why not provide the "proof" on just the current version? One of the nice things about ISO 9001 is that you can choose to do what is right for your particular situation. Choose to begin implementing controls from this day forward, and don't look back. If we all attempted to go back and fix our "past" errors, it would be a never ending costly process (and one that would be of NO benefit to our organizations).

Do it now, but do it right. :thedeal:

Are you ISO certified now to 9001-1994? If so, you found a NC internally, lack of training, so do a CA and fix it. If not, just do the training. You do not need to prove you were perfect in the past to get a 9001-2000 cert or else no one would get one. In either case I would not change the doc revision levels.

Hope this helps -- if not write back. :bigwave:

I agree with David...train only what you currently have. Make ISO work for you...you don't work for ISO. At the same time, I would also think about "grandfathering" people in on training. If the documentation is valid and everyone follows it and there is no evidence that nonconforming product is due to lack of training, I'd consider the "grandfathering" route, as well.

I agree with all the above. When I started in this company, just over a year ago, I 'Grandfathered' all the procedures and work instructions to see if they were currant etc. (by the way, its the first time I have heard that term used!!) I ended up scraping all the procedures! -about 2 years since last revision and a little behind the actual practice- I broke the system down into departments and only created proceures and work instructions for areas where the work was very specific and needed a standardised approach. Like RcB - I made ISO work for me. This gave the staff an opportunity to 'bite-back' and we managed to improve on some processes. No-one has ever been specifically trained in a written procedure because I make them responsible for writting their own departments procedures. they are training in their functions and are assessed on the basis of competance (9001-2000) Before, it was documented that they were trained, regardless of wheaher they could the job or not!

I guess I'm a little confused over what you are asking.
Do you require (within your system) that everyone is trained on "all" procedures? If so why? There is no requirement for this.
IMO the grandfathering is a big waste of time, like Dave said, start now and don't look back. If someone has been at the same job for 2 years why worry about finding out how or if they were trained?
Another point, where is the benefit in training to old levels? That would be like writing your procedure to match QS:1994. train your people. Make changes for QS:1996, train your people. Make changes QS:1998, etc., etc. Waste of time and no benefit, probably cause more confusion.
Plus, if your procedure reflect your day to day operation, personnel are basically trained OJT. They should have had a hand in the procedural changes by bringing up improvements, etc.
Hope this has helped. :bigwave:

I guess I'm a little confused over what you are asking.
....
IMO the grandfathering is a big waste of time, like Dave said, start now and don't look back. If someone has been at the same job for 2 years why worry about finding out how or if they were trained?

My turn to be confused. When we grandfathered people on documentation developed for a process they had been following, I didn't go back and find out how long ago or anything like that. They were here when the process was documented, therefore they are grandfathered on the release date of the document.

Any training will occur on future modifications.

May have gotten my threads mixed up when I mentioned the grandfather act. :o

May have gotten my threads mixed up when I mentioned the grandfather act. :o

Good to know that *you're* the confused one and not me! ;) Didn't you eat your Wheaties for breakfast? J/K!

No, I had a pop tart and a cup of coffee! It's time to go home, I've been here since 5 this morning thinking I was on my way to Toronto!

Thanks to all for the feedback. It has helped resolve this issue.

Just for clarification, we require that employees be trained on documentation directly related to their function and some "All employee" documentation.

mshell :)

Mike S. is on target. go with the capa, even if you do not have certification yet. you establish evidence for two requirements with one document - very efficient. good luck