Considering I'm relatively young in age and experience compared to some of our regulars, I'm not quite sure what type of Training/Certificates a new "Quality" managers SHOULD seek out. (This can apply to people looking to work for small or HUGE companies).

Notes: I got into this Quality "gig" by opportunity not choice. I have no idea if "Quality" is the career choice I will stick with (I'm 30 - B.S. Mechanical Engineer with very little experience beyond my current company of 7 years - OK enough self doubt :bonk: ). However, I am curious what I should be doing/learning to further myself and our company (small ~25 people). I'm not looking for training to secure my job or impress the boss (but it might help). I'm curious what I really should try to learn.

Examples:
In-House Calibration - Should I have some training or are procedure suffiecient?
Statistics - We don't use them NOW, we have an SPC training software, but what should I be prepared to learn?
6 sigma - In a small company where "I" manage all quality projects with minimal support? What is all this black-belt crud I keep seeing in various posts?
Auditing - I already took lead auditor for ISO9k2k.
Others that I can't think of yet?

Should a "new" quality person try to get quality certification letter after their name? Should I join ASQ and similar groups? What minimal publications and standards should we have in-house?

Any general tips and suggestions are welcome.

(Feel free to move where needed. I'm getting older and the years are starting to fly by and I need to start thinking about MY future...)

All that garbage such as certificates and letters behind the name and all that reaaly don't amount to a hill of beans unless they can be placed into action.

What do you need to do your job to the best of your ability for your organization? This is the important question.

What do you want to do, and what do you need to do it? This is a follow on question.

I've got literally pounds of certificates and diplomas stashed in files....they're just gee-whiz documents. For the most part they are useless to me in my present vocation.

As for letters behind your name...I think at one time I could put over half a dozen abbreviations for things behind my RLDaily not counting my degrees. Guess what? Smoke & Mirrors..............unless you benefit from them.

As for joining societies like the ASQ? Absolutely. The problem many times is stagnation of the orgaization and poor participation of members. I attended my 1st ASQ meeting in my new section...what a disappointment. There were 3 other members there and we were in a noisy restaurant. Poor location, poor attendance..nice people though.

As for "Quality" as a career choice, it's kinda like EHS...you don't see none of those types as CEO's and Presidents. When you accept that you can enjoy your career.

All that garbage such as certificates and letters behind the name and all that reaaly don't amount to a hill of beans unless they can be placed into action.

What do you need to do your job to the best of your ability for your organization? This is the important question.

What do you want to do, and what do you need to do it? This is a follow on question.

I've got literally pounds of certificates and diplomas stashed in files....they're just gee-whiz documents. For the most part they are useless to me in my present vocation.

As for letters behind your name...I think at one time I could put over half a dozen abbreviations for things behind my RLDaily not counting my degrees. Guess what? Smoke & Mirrors..............unless you benefit from them.

As for joining societies like the ASQ? Absolutely. The problem many times is stagnation of the orgaization and poor participation of members. I attended my 1st ASQ meeting in my new section...what a disappointment. There were 3 other members there and we were in a noisy restaurant. Poor location, poor attendance..nice people though.

As for "Quality" as a career choice, it's kinda like EHS...you don't see none of those types as CEO's and Presidents. When you accept that you can enjoy your career.

Thanks for the comments.
I'm not really worried about the LETTERS, but the right ones might mean I learned something. (maybe)
I'm not quite sure what I or my company NEEDS to learn to better ourselves. I suppose that was the original intent of the post (before I started babbling).
Perhaps I'll look into ASQ when I get a chance...
I'm not look to be CEO or President, and unless we grow ALOT over the next XX years, I really have no where to go up the ladder. (6 "office people" in total and not likely to grow for a LONG time - Hopefully it does not shrink any more!).
I personally am NOT a "career" personality. Give me a job/task and I'll work my best to finish it. (I'm still learing how to be a "manager" of a big part of our company - quality). *shrug*

Bob:

I agree with what Randy said. What I would suggest for quality is kind of like what I suggest when someone asks me to teach them computers. To me the best way to learn is to have a certain task that you need/want to accomplish, and then figure out the best way to do it (The Cove is a good place to find folks to ask how).

Certifications are nice, and since I have already gotten into one argument over them today, I won't go into this too far, except to say that once you get some experience, studying for the cert is a good way to "fill in" your knowledge base. For instance, I had little contact with many of the measurement methods covered on the CQE (such as eddy current, for example). I still know little, but I do know they exist, and if for some reason it comes up I am not totally in the dark.

Good luck with your quest for quality knowledge!

Craig

Bob,

I agree with Randy about joining ASQ. I don't attend meetings on a regular basis, just no time, but it can keep you in touch with peers from all walks of life. I can't say that I am real pleased about the current state of affairs with the organization, but I won't cancel my membership.

The Chicago section runs some pretty intensive training courses. I took some a few years ago and I was impressed. I recently took a course through the Milwaukee section on the upgrade from 1994 to 2K. I was pleased with the course.

JM US$.02 worth

CarolX

Bob,
What it comes down to is "What do you want to be when you grow up?" Me, I'm still not sure. I like what Craig said about "filling in" your knowledge. I've gone from submarine safe QAI to the wide open tolerances of locomotive parts (we had one that hadn't changed since 1950 something) to production and prototype automotive.
One thing I will say about the certs, it can give you an idea of what is out there. I don't use all that stuff (we don't do pure SPC either) but I know what I'm looking at if I see run chart or an X bar & R chart. Heck, I've had 3 semesters of Greek, I don't have a clue what I'll ever use it for, but I can parse! All I'm trying to say is that if something interests you, go look into it. Expand your horizons, and you'll be surprised what all you can get into under the 'Quality" umbrella (CAD, Engineering, Calibration Lab, etc. etc. etc.).
Besides there are still a big bunch of people that will pay some bucks to have someone come in and tell them what they already know that they should do! That's consulting. :thedeal:

Bob,
What it comes down to is "What do you want to be when you grow up?" Me, I'm still not sure. I like what Craig said about "filling in" your knowledge. I've gone from submarine safe QAI to the wide open tolerances of locomotive parts (we had one that hadn't changed since 1950 something) to production and prototype automotive.
One thing I will say about the certs, it can give you an idea of what is out there. I don't use all that stuff (we don't do pure SPC either) but I know what I'm looking at if I see run chart or an X bar & R chart. Heck, I've had 3 semesters of Greek, I don't have a clue what I'll ever use it for, but I can parse! All I'm trying to say is that if something interests you, go look into it. Expand your horizons, and you'll be surprised what all you can get into under the 'Quality" umbrella (CAD, Engineering, Calibration Lab, etc. etc. etc.).
Besides there are still a big bunch of people that will pay some bucks to have someone come in and tell them what they already know that they should do! That's consulting. :thedeal:
At least I'm not the only one who doesn't know what he want to do when you grow up. (I'm not quite done with my second childhood and I hope I'm far from midlife crisis :ko:) Is it wrong to not "FEEL" like an adult at 30 even with a wife and mortgage? :bonk:
Well while I was the Product Engineer (only) a few years back I REALLY enjoyed the CAD part of my job. Unfortuantetly that is just a minor task as needed now... (there are plenty more parts I could draw for internal use, but we don't really NEED them at the moment).
I know more than I give myself credit for or even realize and the Cove and the Covers have taught me alot.

So what are some good classes / topics I and anyone else new could/should look into?

I've already done:
Lead Auditor class, basic SPC software- internal, basic Gage R&R - peform and plug into spreadsheet, basic in-house calibration based on "hands on training", internal training, and example on the cove, I've done simple PPAP submissions which included VERY BASIC FMEAs and the like...

I guess I have the "basics" covered thru minimal usage and Cover help, but it might be a good idea to get some extra training in 2004 if possible/needed.

Certifications are nice, and since I have already gotten into one argument over them today, I won't go into this too far,

Craig: With who ? Remember, 2 acronyms, MAX. :vfunny:

Metal B:

Join Quality societies so at least you can keep in tune with the latest trends, gizmos amd buzzwords. Some of it is indeed fruitless, but you need to be able to speak intelligently about it (especially if you move to another company). You can choose whether or not to become active in a local chapter. You'll get some good out of knowing whats new and reading some of the publications.

If you feel like you need CQE, CQM, etc. then do it. But do yourelf a favor: Practice intimately everything about what it should stand for. Just like registration, certifications only say the tools are there. It's up to you to use them to make you and your people a value-added member of QA world.

Six-Sigma: Get all the fundamentals before you embark on too much of this. I think the jury is still out on it's effectiveness.

Basic Statistics can be your best friend. Learn it, understand it and use it. Easy to learn and apply without being intimidating to anyone.

The best way I was ever able to utilize all the magnificent tools available was to educate others with it. If forces you, the Professor, to have a solid working knowledge. Giving people a CD has never benefited me or my people. I'll pop ya a real world example of a format that has helped me and my people from Job Shops to Tier One.

I am takin' 5. Hope this helps. Anyone else ? :bigwave:

Bob,

I'm biased and inexperianced.... I just spent 600$ of my own money to learn and try to pass the CQE.

last year I got the CQT (that too also was my own money).

I spent some time deciding this because my employer really doesn't care. :( I'm one a small group of chemists that have interest (and really one of the ONLY chemist) in the Quality assurance duties we have (In fact I've even picked up a few extra duties--all to be done in my "spare" time of course).

But the certification has meaning to me, because I feel it shows initiative, interest and passion for being involved in it. And if my employer doesn't allow me to "grow in it", hopefully a new employer will take my certification as a sign of intiative...

Question: Do you think future employers might? as said, I a little skinny on the experience and sometimes find myself excluded (particularly six sigma: :mad: )

As for great amounts of knowledge from it -- only if you need a lot of external pressure to pick things up. Even ASQ primer courses... Sometimes it is more about pressuring you to puzzle things out on your free time- then actually giving stuff.

good reasons:
prove to employee,etc inititative.
curiousity of the many aspects of quality.

poor reasons:
letters.
pay raises.
'gaining a lot of needed knowledge' (asking questions here and elsewhere is better)

J:

First, WELCOME to the Cove!!!

You ask some good questions. First, to answer your question about future employment, I would say that having the certifications should help (with the right employer) and definately won't hurt your chances. As far as the certifications themselves, they are a way of finding out "what's out there", to steal from an earlier poster. The techniques you learn should also add to your arsenal of problem solving tools. Coming from your background, the emphasis on data should be very familiar to you, so in that respect you are already well ahead of the game.

If I may ask, what did you spend the $600 on? When studying for the CQE, I found the CQE Primer, from the Quality Council of Indiana, to be a very valuable resource, and it can be had for much less.

Finally, if you do decide to persue certification, there are quite a few of us here on the Cove that enjoy questions that make us think. If you need it, you should find help here, with those of us who have been there, done that, have the tee shirt, and the CQX certificate.

Good luck.

Craig H.

Bob M,

The other contributors here have given some really good advice.

As for the examples of what you may want to learn.......

Calibration, I recommend outsourcing it. Your organization is small enough that it is the more cost-effective method. Find an ISO/IEC 17025 - accredited calibration lab that has the type of instrument(s) you have included in the scope.

Statistics, the first question is, what are measurable goals/processes that are important to the organization? Find simple ways to track them and to develop ways of reporting the measurements to all employees that they can understand and relate to.

Six sigma, I wouldn't worry about at first, unless you have 20 PhD's in stats working there. 6S is not a bad thing, but tailor ANY stats to the group who needs to actually USE them!

Auditing, remember an internal audit is a tool used to monitor the process health of the organization. It is not meant to be a club.

Joining a group like ASQ is a good thing. I recommend it. Professional societies in the field your organization is in usually are also good sources of information and training.

Just my thoughts.

Hershal

Bob,

I'm biased and inexperianced.... I just spent 600$ of my own money to learn and try to pass the CQE.

last year I got the CQT (that too also was my own money).

I spent some time deciding this because my employer really doesn't care. :( I'm one a small group of chemists that have interest (and really one of the ONLY chemist) in the Quality assurance duties we have (In fact I've even picked up a few extra duties--all to be done in my "spare" time of course).

But the certification has meaning to me, because I feel it shows initiative, interest and passion for being involved in it. And if my employer doesn't allow me to "grow in it", hopefully a new employer will take my certification as a sign of intiative...

Question: Do you think future employers might? as said, I a little skinny on the experience and sometimes find myself excluded (particularly six sigma: :mad: )

As for great amounts of knowledge from it -- only if you need a lot of external pressure to pick things up. Even ASQ primer courses... Sometimes it is more about pressuring you to puzzle things out on your free time- then actually giving stuff.

good reasons:
prove to employee,etc inititative.
curiousity of the many aspects of quality.

poor reasons:
letters.
pay raises.
'gaining a lot of needed knowledge' (asking questions here and elsewhere is better):bigwave: Welcome to the Cove! Pat Oliphant, the political cartoonist, is a favorite of mine. Any relation?

Hershal makes an excellent suggestion to join ASQ. Although I and other members frequently rail against the bureaucracy of the paid staff at the American Society for Quality, it is still the strongest place for networking with peers and gaining knowledge and the credentials,

The essence of having a certificate from ASQ versus any other entity is that the Body of Knowledge (BOK) which underlies the certification is widely known and published. The testing procedures are pretty "cheat proof" so folks who know about certifications will accept a certificate holder at face value as being able to deal with and use material in the BOK to the employer's advantage.

Thus said:
Consider why you are unhappy with a chemistry career and want to go into "Quality."
If it's money - Quality folk make about the same as chemists on an experience and number of people "managed" basis



The American Chemical Society reports that the median salary of all of its members with a bachelor’s degree was $32,800 a year in 2002; for those with a master’s degree, it was $50,000; and for those with a Ph.D., it was $68,000. Median salaries were highest for those working in private industry; those in academia earned the least. According to an ACS survey of recent graduates, inexperienced chemistry graduates with a bachelor’s degree earned a median starting salary of $31,000 in 2002; those with a master’s degree earned a median salary of $45,000; and those with a Ph.D. made median earnings of $67,500. Among bachelor’s degree graduates, those who had completed internships or had other work experience while in school commanded the highest starting salaries. In 2003, chemists in nonsupervisory, supervisory, and managerial positions in the Federal Government averaged $76,857 a year.Compare that to Quality:
(numbers in parentheses are # respondents to poll)
Title ....................... W/O Cert. .......W/Cert

Manager .................. $64,907 (689) $66,003 (359)
Engineer .................. $59,422 (215) $62,488 (170)
Director ................... $89,565 (170) $87,581 (98)
Coordinator .............. $44,553 (86) ..$49,127 (37)
ISO Coordinator ........ $49,046 (89) ..$51,778 (32)
Technician ............... $40,122 (58) ..$39,822 (30)

Thankx for the comments wes and craig.

:topic: I love Pat Oliphant's cartoons as well - no known relation (there's more 'oliphant's out there than many people would guess.

$$$ on certs- Did the primer courses for CQT and CQE. Done and passed the CQT last year. Am anxiously awaiting word on the CQE I took last week... Primer courses Don't tell you everything but they force you too study and provide a place to ask questions. They greatly add to the expense (no doubt) but they're not as bad as some of those seminars!-they go 1k up and many without even a paper...

WHy do I want to do Quality??Strait answer- I like it better. As I said before I wallow in the limited QA roles that most other chemists here have and hate..
Internal auditing, Statistical Capability studies, Gauge R&R, Calibration, etc.

you can go to school to be a chemist (I did), but the career track for QA is a little harder for most. So you get a job and have a chance a chance to learn whats out there and things seem different then back in college.

My obstacle here is of course that for all my interest, I'm paid for something else. All the QA stuff is 'secondary' role (in your spare time, now who has 'spare' time no days--). That and six sigma has come along and mostly gone to more experienced chemists.

so its not really a matter of money. Its more 'I think I want to be a Quality X' kind of thing.

Now I'm drained- but in a while I know (part. if I pass CQE) I will feel it again - the desire to get additional accreditation (CCT? CQA?- even half wondering about lead auditor training-my is that expensive).

Of course I'd love to find an employer who is willing to employ me as a quality person. But I'm secure here, and not doing bad for $$$, the family is nearby and Pittsburgh isn't the biggest quality town.

Maybe best said to both Bob AND to reply to others
Certifications like career directions can be a personal asset and for me that makes it worth a lot of time, and $$$- even if my employer could care less. I am sure, myself, that if Quality was something I was told to cover and it didn't interest me; I wouldn't do cert-espacially on my own money. (just like I'm probably not going to volunteer and pay my way to ACS training or seminars).

I wouldn't call me an unhappy chemist. Just a chemist who wants to 'grow' into Quality and specifically into methodical, statistical, meaningful problem-solving; and leave titration, Spectrophotometers, and acid-base equilibrium as background information.

Done and passed the CQT last year. Am anxiously awaiting word on the CQE I took last week...).

J O: Next week around Thursday evening 4 pm EST, log in to your ASQ Member log in and click certification Tab, you may be able to see your result even before you physically receive the certificate hardcopy by post. This is my experience. Obviously CQMgr will take longer time since it involves manual marking of "constructive response" questions.

This cool feature is not known to many members. You will see all your previous certifications with certification date and recertification due date also if you open now.

This feature has been there since ASQ redesigned their webpage last year.


Now I'm drained- but in a while I know (part. if I pass CQE) I will feel it again - the desire to get additional accreditation (CCT? CQA?- even half wondering about lead auditor training-my is that expensive).

Both CCT and CQA are very good additions. Revised BOK CQA exam was administered along with yours last Saturday.

My suggestion is both CQA and Lead auditor (ISO9001?) are required to be an effective auditor.

CQA Body of Knowledge is "standards" independent. It provides an audit management from planning to closure. Where as lead auditor course focus heavily on ISO9001:2000 interpretations and its applications.

You may want to consider CQA with ISTO exam. This can be a good combination. I will post a thread in "certification" topic about ISTO shortly.
This ISTO exam does not seem to be expensive.

Regards,
Govind.

J Oliphant,


I see from your profile that you are in Butler, PA. That means you are near Butler County Community College, one of the very few schools in the US to have a degree program in metrology. (I think it's also about the oldest such program.) Even if metrology itself is not that interesting to you, it may be worthwhile to go there & talk to some of the professors and students for their insights.

Statistical analysis (including standard deviation or "sigma"), process diagrams, fishbone diagramming, graphical analysis, confidence intervals, hypothesis testing, correlation and regression, design of experiments, control (or process description) charts and more -- you are surely at least familiar with all of those tools from your CQE studies and prior education. All of them are anywhere from 20 to 80+ years old, so they are not new. However, the current fad is to put all of these and other tools, plus documentation of your ability to use them, into a single box, call it by a fancy name like "six sigma black belt" and aggressively market it as something "new". SO, if you can get an appropriate project accomplished where you are now and then take the ASQ SSBB certification exam, you will have something that is somewhat more marketable than CQE because it is the current fad. It may open more doors for you.

Once you get in the door, then you can dazzle them with the excellence you can apply to the job.

Also get involved with your local ASQ Section - attending meetings and even doing volunteer work for them will put you in contact with local people who may assist you career change. If you are a member of any of ASQ's divisions (Quality Auditing, Quality Management, Measurement Quality for example) then being active in them and doing volunteer work will do the same thing for you but at the regional or national level.

Since most resumes are analyzed by computers these days, make sure it contains both of the words "six" and "sigma", :D

... This cool feature is not known to many members.
Govind,

How true ... thanks for the information! I've been a member since 1991 and a web site user since it was started, yet I had never stumbled across that feature!

Graeme
--------

I've taken classes at BC3 (as its locally called) and I didn't know that.

Six Sigma. I served as a resource for a project, but its a little hard to volunteer for- Our Company has entered the craze, as well.

philosophically, its enough to grumble that despite interest, and involvement with plant processes I have not been chosen as one of the several green or black belts.

Perhaps with more urging, I can try to pull off something documented like the SSBB... hmm.

Has anybody tried to attain a 6 sigma experience by paying for there own education or seeking an employer willing to give the guy a chance??

Govind,

How true ... thanks for the information! I've been a member since 1991 and a web site user since it was started, yet I had never stumbled across that feature!

Graeme
--------
:topic:
Not only that Graeme,
I understand, ASQ has linked this Certification page within the our membership login to few databases. The changes happen real-time.

Once anyone apply for certification ON-LINE, immediately it adds the applied certification title to the page with comments certified by N/A, recertified by N/A.

Also I guess it is linked to the Certification results database. Once the result is available (approx 14th day from exam) the certification gets added to this page.N/A gets updated to real dates.

This is just one of the many good features. :applause:
ASQ does many good things. But quietly. I guess they need to communicate better to our members all the good things they have. (and those good things that will be provided in the future). This way ASQ will be able to improve satisfaction and loyalty.

Regards,
Govind.

I've taken classes at BC3 (as its locally called) and I didn't know that.

Six Sigma. I served as a resource for a project, but its a little hard to volunteer for- Our Company has entered the craze, as well.

philosophically, its enough to grumble that despite interest, and involvement with plant processes I have not been chosen as one of the several green or black belts.

Perhaps with more urging, I can try to pull off something documented like the SSBB... hmm.

Has anybody tried to attain a 6 sigma experience by paying for there own education or seeking an employer willing to give the guy a chance??Bummer that you weren't chosen. BB do have an opportunity to earn more money and (lately) seem to have more portability from company to company and industry to industry.

One newer transferee (MBB) into one of my ASQ sections came from a railroad to a major pharmaceutical company in our area!

We have several folks in the same section who are consultants who have earned and paid their own way to ASQ BB status.

These guys were extremely sharp and knowledgeable about most aspects of Quality prior to the BB stuff. Their most difficult task was to get "signoff" on BB project, not learning the Body of Knowledge.

I hope this gives you the background you sought.

Note: 2 in the same Section have ALL the ASQ certifications. They are now struggling for a way to get them all in "sync" for recertification purposes.

I can see you are looking for "What to know?" and not papers or training certificate, I think that the best thing to do is to GET IN, just like what Craig said, if u need to learn computer, you need to know what you want to do with it first, getting into a project is the best way to let you learn and here is my experience:

i started working as Q.A engineer one and half year ago, and the first task was to help the quality assurance manager to get the company certified ISO 16949! in 6 months we got almost done and the last three months of this period, i found myself almost alone taking care of every thing since the manager was busy taking care of another factory of ours, now, i am working in another factory, the only quality assurance person in the factory, and my task is to get the company certified ISO9001:2000 in few months, i am doing so well so far, and i can find almost all the help i need from internet and this forum. i am sure that soon i can be a very trusted Q.A Manager in the company and who knows!
wish you best of luck in your new career