Just out of curiousity (and I hate filing stuff), how long do you keep your inspection records (in-coming, in-process, final, etc.) and why that long?
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Per our procedures, our standard inspection record retention is 1 year, with optional disposal (basically if/when someone gets around to it).

I don't know WHY we keep them for 1 year, but I'd have to guess that's rather standard for most people, and it will cover you arse :ca: for at least one year.

As far as we know, we don't have any customer requirements that force us to keep them an specific amount of time.
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We have boxes with some in-process inspections that are over 6 years old (mostly torque readings for one of our "major" assemblies for one of customers.
We have in-coming material inspections that may be just as old.
We pretty much keep calibration records for ever, but I don't have a problem with that (yet).
Most of our modern (since '99 and '00) in-process inspections are still onfile, and will be until I take the time to dispose of them.
(Did I mention I hate filing?! ;))
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I'm pondering scanning the records in the future, but then it swaps the time it takes to physically file something with the time it take to scan it and possibly convert to a PDF. I love computers, but I'm not a clerk and we don't have one anymore.
Then how long do you keep the electronic version?

Bob, in these days living in a litigious society we need to ask the question "What if?". What could be the outcome of not retaining records? Many times this type of issue really needs to be tossed into the lap of an attorney. I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it does offer up something that many folks seem to not identify.

Bob, in these days living in a litigious society we need to ask the question "What if?". What could be the outcome of not retaining records? Many times this type of issue really needs to be tossed into the lap of an attorney. I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it does offer up something that many folks seem to not identify.
I agree!

Our in-process inspections which record "torque" have been around longer than most any other type of in-process inspection. I have no problem storing them long term. (They go on semi-trailer axles). I also don't mind keeping material certs and inspections long term.

But I have no desire to keep basic dimensional inspections (which most of ours are) for more than a year. This is our system is setup, I just don't have the desire to throw them away yet.

Other than legal/what if reasons, how do OTHERS determine how long to keep inspection records?

We keep our records for 1 year minimum. Why....I dunno...always been that way. And yes, there are many records that have just never been tossed out...LOL.

One area that people do miss are HR records, IF this is where you file your training and competency records. Our procedure requires to maintain those files for 1 year AFTER termination of employment.

CarolX

Ours are Life of active part + 1 year, Model year + 1 year, and some are until authorized melt of the die.
We are required to build parts for service so the active part + 1year, some parts won't be service parts so the model year + 1 year, and some will never be production parts but may be looked at during the next similar prototype so the authorized melt of the die.

Depends on the type of inspections:

Our equipment (tractors/trailers) we keep on file for as long as the equipment is in our system.

Why? If a driver is involved in an accident, we need to be able to prove it was not due to faulty equipment and required inspections were conducted.

Our delivery receipts also service as inspection documents and those are kept on file for two years.
Why?
Statute of limitations on filing a claim is 9 months, but we keep them for two years as a courtesy to our customers.

This isn't an Inspection Record, but pertains to the same question about retention.
We had a customer lose a fixture that we shipped them 3+ years ago, of course they wanted proof that we had shipped it. Our retention policy is that we maintain records (shippers) for the life of active part + 1 year. The part being checked has been in production for 3 year, the fixture was shipped to the customer after Job One so about 1 year ago the records were purged. Now the problem.

We located the shipper at another plant that does work for our customer, no big deal, however they are blasting us for not retaining the records longer. We were told that it is mandatory for us to keep shipping documents for 11 years for legal purposes! Even accounting is only 7.

Has anyone run into this problem? And are we required to retain these records for 11 years for legal purposes?

This isn't an Inspection Record, but pertains to the same question about retention.
We had a customer lose a fixture that we shipped them 3+ years ago, of course they wanted proof that we had shipped it. Our retention policy is that we maintain records (shippers) for the life of active part + 1 year. The part being checked has been in production for 3 year, the fixture was shipped to the customer after Job One so about 1 year ago the records were purged. Now the problem.

We located the shipper at another plant that does work for our customer, no big deal, however they are blasting us for not retaining the records longer. We were told that it is mandatory for us to keep shipping documents for 11 years for legal purposes! Even accounting is only 7.

Has anyone run into this problem? And are we required to retain these records for 11 years for legal purposes?
Where it WRITTEN that you HAVE to keep records for 11 years? Sounds like your customer may keep their records for 11 years, and they are just lashing out. Who want's to keep SHIPPING records for 11 years? That would probably fill an entire warehouse for some companies! Sounds like customer is trying to run YOUR company. You might want/need the big wigs to step in as needed.

I agree Bob, just wanted to make sure before I answer their e-mail in my sweet and polite manner that I reserve for telemarketers!

"Oficially" we keep inspection records for 3 years, but in reality we have kept them since the company started 9 years ago. But, I don't want to have to go rooting thru really old stuff for an auditor just to prove something as an exercise, so we only say 3 years. Three years is a bit longer than any customer has ever asked us to go back, and 1 year customers balked on, so we settled on 3. But I've had internal guys ask me to go back 3 years or more to find stuff for research purposes, which is a pain. Our records are not too bulky and we have lots of storage, plus it is inlikely we would be involved in any safety type issues. I can see where some companies might want to keep them a long, long time as a CYA thing.

Here's a portion of the email I received, I can't find anything to support their stand.

Let me mention something else, last week I started considering the possibility of making this fixture again, but since it was put over the table the possibility of "wasting money" our plant controller got involved and based on the fact of not having a overwhelming evidence this fixture was shipped to us, she is stating the next:

"IRS tax regulations require all invoicing and payables / shipping information to be retained for seven years. If they don't have the information and cannot prove they returned them, we are within our rights to charge them the full cost of the fixtures"

Seven years for invoices is what we follow (per an old CPA chart we follow).

Basically is sounds like the customer screwed up so lets scream and holler at the supplier. (Similar thread posted recently). THEY lost their fixture and records and want to blame you for not having good enough records.

Can you tell them to go screw themselves in a polite way? They lost something, and you should have proof they HAD it... Some customers are unbelievable.

Document Management and Control are a specialty of mine.

I always consider 3 factors when we make plans for retention and subsequent disposal of documents and records:
1) Is there a regulation from a government authority? (FAA requires minimum of 2 year retention of Quality Records for Parts Approval Holders [a term of art for organizations empowered to manufacture parts for aircraft])
2) Does customer request a specific term as part of contract?
3) What serves our purpose in terms of keeping a record of our improvement [or lack of improvement]?

We then determine a standard retention period. If a customer requests holding a record longer than our standard retention period [ala the 11 years mentioned earlier in this string], we file a note in the file which directs us to inform the customer at the end of our normal retention period that "We will no longer retain these documents [list]. If you require these documents or records, we will ship them to you. Otherwise, we will destroy them if we do not receive shipping instructions from you by [date]."

An additional tip:
"Documents" are changeable, "records" are immutable. Often, we compile reports which summarize records and retain the reports while we dispose of records at the end of the retention period. Documents may become obsolete long before the retention period passes.

For example, we may not keep the inspection records after the retention period, but we may keep a report of the Cpk in manufacturing a specific component as a benchmark for manufacturing similar items.

If we switch from standard transmission dock jeeps to automatic transmission ones for the entire fleet, we no longer keep work instructions for maintenance and repair of clutches, regardless of the standard retention period.

Final tip:
Retaining records and documents is important. A system for accessing them when necessary is almost more important.

Final tip:
Retaining records and documents is important. A system for accessing them when necessary is almost more important.
Very good tips! Especially the note to customers about destroying old files.

If I personally had a good system for filing "records" I probably wouldn't have started the thread. :eek: I hate to file. *shrug*

I guess that this would all depend upon your industry, your customers and your corporate requirements, but,....

Our day to day testing results (printouts, hand filled in, etc.) we mostly keep for a min of one year. All this information is entered or transferred to the production history, so it is available anyway. We keep the original test info just to make sure that if something is whack later we can verify data entry. No biggie, we have the computer files. Our corporate office says that we need to keep "lot" information for as long as we are in business. (and if our division went under, they would maintain it) Of course we are talking about product that could very well still be in use 50 years from now or longer. So, paper files 1 year or less in some cases. But all those results will be available long after I am gone and my kids have retired.

No requirement for shippers to be kept can be found. I have found sites that suggest that they be kept for 5 years, but no requirement. http://www.fvbkcpa.com/articles/Business_Articles/Business_Record_Retention.htm
http://www.yeoandyeo.com/services/tax/schedule.pdf

Bob,

For Commercial devices , you can keep that for 3 yrs, for military 5 yrs. You could check mil-std-883, there are list of records and their retention times.

For other records, you can established retention period depending on the need of the company, make sure you just document it.

Gheghe

Bob,

For Commercial devices , you can keep that for 3 yrs, for military 5 yrs. You could check mil-std-883, there are list of records and their retention times.

Gheghe
Hi Gheghe, and Welcome to the Cove:bigwave:

Got a couple of questions to toss out here. Where did you get the 3 years for commercial? All of our work here is commercial, and we only maintain our files for 1 year.
Military applications can vary. 5 years in the US is not standard, because it depends on the product. I have worked for several defense contractors and I have had requirements from 1 to 7 years. It depends on the commodity.
MIL-STD-883 only applies to microcircuts. It does not apply to metal cabinets.

CarolX

Thanks,
Yeah right, we are requried by our customer. Some of them requires only one calendar year but the management decided have it all (for commercial products) 3 years.

Ghe

Thanks,
Yeah right, we are requried by our customer. Some of them requires only one calendar year but the management decided have it all (for commercial products) 3 years.

Ghe
Exactly what a good management system is all about. Identifying customer needs and finding the best way to satisfy those.

I worked for a FAA-PMA defense contractor, and the regulations and contract requirements required 3 year retention. We opted for 7 year retention, and on more than one occasion, it paid off.

CarolX

For different customers & different standards there are different retention times.

HOWEVER, what I have found in practice in auditing various companies is that the ACTUAL retention times are FAR LONGER than what most QMS's state. People keep records FOREVER. A weak link in most company's document control systems is their enforcement of PURGING documents when they pass their retention date. While legally it is an important thing to do, most companies simply find or build more storage areas. Get subpoenaed by a lawyer on a liability suit some time and that will change!

What do some of YOU do to ensure documents are not kept BEYOND their retention dates??? :eek:

For different customers & different standards there are different retention times.

HOWEVER, what I have found in practice in auditing various companies is that the ACTUAL retention times are FAR LONGER than what most QMS's state. People keep records FOREVER. A weak link in most company's document control systems is their enforcement of PURGING documents when they pass their retention date. While legally it is an important thing to do, most companies simply find or build more storage areas. Get subpoenaed by a lawyer on a liability suit some time and that will change!

What do some of YOU do to ensure documents are not kept BEYOND their retention dates??? !:eek:"A weak link in most company's document control systems is their enforcement of PURGING documents when they pass their retention date."

Actually, the weakest link in most folks document control systems is not evaluating the process from time to time to see what works and what doesn't.

I use an acronym "SPACE" to help me with personal and corporate storage and retention of everything, documents and "stuff."
S = Sort (keep like things with like things)
P = Purge (What will I do if I need this and do NOT have it? If the answer is workable and it is not a one-of-a-kind item, I can purge it with clear conscience,)
A = Assign (a good place to store where it will be safe and also retrievable with a minimum of effort)
C = Containerize (good file folders, boxes, bags, filing cabinets, etc. that will protect the stuff and make it easy to identify and retrieve.)
E = Evaluate (Is the system working or does it need to be tweaked?)

I agree. In fact, while typing my post I originally put "weakest link" and changed it to "weak link" for that very reason. I like your mnemonic device. By the way, "(P)urging" applies also to electronic documents.

It just happened that an Indian Minister was passing by an open place where officials were disposing ( burning) records.
The minister was curious finding "ho-hulla" (voracious activity) going on at the site, and asked the driver what was going on.
Hearing the reply "Sir, they are probably burnaing old records", he spontaneously ordered the driver to stop!
"Ask them have they organised a photostat copy of each paper before burning them?????"

thareja
p.s.
I couldn't read the thread till the end, unless you heard my ha!ha!ha!

HOWEVER, what I have found in practice in auditing various companies is that the ACTUAL retention times are FAR LONGER than what most QMS's state. People keep records FOREVER. A weak link in most company's document control systems is their enforcement of PURGING documents when they pass their retention date. While legally it is an important thing to do, most companies simply find or build more storage areas. Get subpoenaed by a lawyer on a liability suit some time and that will change!

What do some of YOU do to ensure documents are not kept BEYOND their retention dates??? :eek:

Personally, I'm "guilty" of keeping things longer than the "official" retention time. I don't wanna get busted for something trivial like not purging records on some artificial date, nor do I want an auditor to ask me for a 5 year old document just to test my system. So I set only minimum retention times and rarely purge unless I need space. I'm not worried about getting subpoenaed (never got one) but a few times I've had a need to find a really old record that was beyond the "official" retention time.

The major aerospace company in the US requires that quality records be kept for seven (7) years.

The major aerospace company in the US requires that quality records be kept for seven (7) years.
When I worked for an aircraft parts manufacture, we kept records for 10 years. That allowed for the 7 year retention, plus 3, becuase some stock was held for several years.

CarolX

Our contributors have mostly agreed over the unforeseen need for referring to records which are past their designated ( documented) life.
[ it can not be 'designated', since they are now being required for some emergent or unavoidable interest].

So perhaps their long term storage is the ultimate solution.
Now, how to submit to this requirement effectively and efficiently is the next challenge, and perhaps a contention for a real solution.

1. we design our document building process such that the purging is more rigourous.
2. The documents are more concise and formatted in a localised space.
which enables getting the most in a smaller/ single screen /view.
3. Perhaps the soft copies; and cater to the vertical requirements, rest in back up, but kind of a WAN or still wider.[dump in antartica]Ha!Ha!Ha!

Being serious!
calling on software/ DBMS experts to evolve a cheaper, and potent mode of storage retrieval or as Wes Bucey wisely put it ( post of 1st Oct, in this thread) SPACE !

b) ISO 9000 standard administartors + system administrators to integrate tools like 5 - S applied to document control system.

c) Statutory regulators: Let's call it a day to amass the wastes

Our policy is to retain records for "five years beyond their relevant or useful life" (that's normal for our industry, I suppose), though some customers specify that we keep records related to a particular program longer. My problem that I'm running into is HOW do I go through and at what intervals to dispose of those documents we've had for those "five years"? And what about off-site backup copies? :( I know that just as you want to retain records for legal purposes, you want to dispose of them for legal purposes also. But I just don't have the time to constantly be monitoring my records, determining which records should be disposed of and when. Should I have a special designation on the records stating if there's any special retention requirements? Ahhhhhhh!!! This is a rough one! :truce:

My problem that I'm running into is HOW do I go through and at what intervals to dispose of those documents we've had for those "five years"? Perhaps this old thread can be of help? It concernes the same subject and holds further links: 4.2.4 Control of Records - Can someone please clarify "...and disposition of records" (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=11473&highlight=retention)

/Claes

P.s. Slightly :topic: About Your signature: You do know the slight difference between dancing and wrestling, then? There are some grips you are not allowed to use in wrestling ;)

I have a question. If we scan all quality records and back up the network on a weekly basis, would we be able to dispose of the original hard copy on a monthly basis. All records would then be on file in pdf format for immediate retrieval. Is there any requirement to keep the original, since all signatures would be on the scanned copy. This would also keep anyone from changing a quality record.

Do you have any ideas on what to do with electronic backups stored offsite though? These backups have records on them too, but obviously I can't go through these backups and delete specific records...