We have been certified for six (6) years now (9002 to 9001 version) and todate, we still have our documentation on paper. I would like to sell the idea of a paperless system to our management.

I'd like to get some ideas on how I could present it to our management. Do I have to make a study on what the advantages are to the company? Or maybe also to me, being the lead audit and document custodian at the same time? Would it take much time of our IT to me in setting up this system? What softwares would your recommend for us to use?

Apprreciate your help on this.

Thanks,
Marla (Kel)

May we inquire "WHY" you want to convert to paperless documentation?

Do you have lots and lots of paper? Hundreds of different forms? Frequent revisions? Multiple locations of personnel and/or production facilities? Require frequent collaboration on documents with suppliers and customers?

If so, the dollar savings in personnel and storage space would be tremendous. The soft cost benefit is that you can buy software which will automatically "push" revisions of controlled documents to all pertinent parties, assuring no one ever uses an obsolete document, thereby manufacturing an obsolete component. During the process of creation or revision, you can automatically notify via email (or even cell phone or pager) each person in the approval chain as soon as the previous person in the chain has added his authorization.

There is a capital expenditure to ensure everyone has software loaded on his machine, but that is offset by the built-in security which prevents unauthorized personnel from deleting or modifying a document. You can even have an audit trail of everyone who accesses a document and whether they made modifications.

A tremendous benefit of some software is the ability to view documents without having the resident software that created the document. So folks can read drawings even when they don't have drafting software.

Recommending specific brands of software without knowing more about your company and its needs would be counterproductive. You are not at that stage yet, anyway. You need to alert some of the bosses to the general benefits before you spend time or money looking at specific software.

I'm not really sure if we have that much documentation compared to other companies. We have at least 40 procedures, 30 work instructions, 70 forms, 16 references, a quality manual and the job descriptions manual. All these belong to 9 different departments / copyholders.

But with the plan of centralizing our QMS with our branch office and another sister company, I guess this would really be of much help. These companies have about the same number of documentation like us. We have separate Quality Management Representative, Document and data control, Lead Auditor and team. Surveillance audit of the certifying body is done to each of the units and we have our own separate certificates.

Maybe we can maintain one manual for the general process functions which is more or less the same throughout the companies and only the operational procedures would be different and shall be distributed to concerned department/company.

Still have to check though with our certifying body is this is acceptable.

Thanks!

We have been certified for six (6) years now (9002 to 9001 version) and todate, we still have our documentation on paper. I would like to sell the idea of a paperless system to our management.

I'd like to get some ideas on how I could present it to our management. Do I have to make a study on what the advantages are to the company? Or maybe also to me, being the lead audit and document custodian at the same time? Would it take much time of our IT to me in setting up this system? What softwares would your recommend for us to use?

Apprreciate your help on this.

Thanks,
Marla (Kel)

Marla

Some basic questions first. Who is your system for? By that I mean: who uses it, who gets benefit from it, how easily can they find what they want from it? Does it help your people to understand how the business operates and how their work affects others, is it used for induction and training of staff? And is it easy to update? Or is it "just" to satisfy the external assessor?

If your people can all access your IT network or Intranet, you can publish your management system as a structured set of process descriptions (preferably as deployment flowcharts) along with a document register, and set up links to your procedures, work instructions and forms where they are needed. This makes it very easy for users to find exactly the information they need at any time. They will know that the electronic system is always the current version, and you will have no paper copies to update and distribute.

We encourage people to define their "management system" rather than just their "quality system". If you concentrate on defining how the business is run rather than on complying with ISO9K, you can accommodate external standards more easily. And this often also helps management to align the business plan with the management system by concentrating on objectives and how they are met.

Hello Marla,

We have had some great discussions about paperless systems in the past. Try these links:

Document Control and Distribution - How to save paper? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5584)
4.2.3d (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5932&highlight=Access)
Notes on equipment (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5904&highlight=Access)
Paperless systems (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=3851&highlight=paperless)

/Claes

Peter,

Re your basic questions...

The system is for us (employees) and we are the ones who benefit from it. If a staff needs to read a procedure or work instruction, then he/she would have to go their department manager who keeps a controlled copy. Yes, it is used for induction and training. I do all the revisions/updating using Word. No, this is not to satisfy the external auditors.

2nd paragraph of your post is a very good reason to go paperless.


Claes,

Ok, I'll take a look at the previous posts re paperless documentation.

Thanks a lot,
Marla

Peter,

Re your basic questions...

The system is for us (employees) and we are the ones who benefit from it. If a staff needs to read a procedure or work instruction, then he/she would have to go their department manager who keeps a controlled copy. Yes, it is used for induction and training. I do all the revisions/updating using Word. No, this is not to satisfy the external auditors.

2nd paragraph of your post is a very good reason to go paperless.

Thanks a lot,
Marla

Marla

Glad to hear that the system is for you and not for the assessor!

The structure of your on-line system is worth thinking about. The need for a separate "quality manual" should disappear - I don't understand why the standard mentions it in the first place! We use a small number of top-level process groups ("the key steps to achieve your business objectives") as a top level index, with individual processes within each. You can then link to other processes and to supporting documentation. Our Document Register is indexed by logical top level groups too. The aim has to be to make it easy for staff to find what they want.

You will still need IT housekeeping disciplines to ensure that the "authorised" version of a document is published, and there will be times when a paper copy is needed. It is sometimes best to say that anything printed is "uncontrolled".

Re Wes Bucey's post: you can get software which will publish your system as a set of HTML files, so all staff can access it using a web browser - so no need for extra software on each PC, just for you to maintain the system.

...We encourage people to define their "management system" rather than just their "quality system". If you concentrate on defining how the business is run rather than on complying with ISO9K, you can accommodate external standards more easily. And this often also helps management to align the business plan with the management system by concentrating on objectives and how they are met.

Very well said, good points!

You will still need IT housekeeping disciplines to ensure that the "authorised" version of a document is published, and there will be times when a paper copy is needed. It is sometimes best to say that anything printed is "uncontrolled".

I would like to add one more thought to what Peter has posted. Not only is IT assistance in maintenance helpful, but you can reap great benefits in getting their input in the structuring of the system. If you are looking at an "intranet" in the future they can help with software that is easily adaptable to HTML (Access, Excel, etc.) so that you can start on the network and still be able to move and translate your work into HTML.
We worked with our IT people to map out what our documentation system would look like using what they do to map out a network.

As you are trying to convince Mgt to go "Paperless", will there additional purchases of terminals required to reach those that currently use paper? Will they be receptive to using a computer, rather than consult their "book"? While going paperless was fun for me, I encountered resistance when I tried to introduce it to the shop floor. "I don't want these guys playing around on the computer when they should be working". Or, "These guys cannot or will not use the computer". How much disruption or confusion will be tolerated with the switchover? These are the things that Management are concerned about. You know, the old "If it ain't broke. don't fix it." Just make sure it is worth it and not an attempt to look more efficient. Just another viewpoint. :agree:

You know, the old "If it ain't broke. don't fix it." Just make sure it is worth it and not an attempt to look more efficient. Just another viewpoint. :agree:
Very good point Energy. I agree. We had an extensive computer network alreay in place when we opted to do away with most of the paper documents (We have cut the paper mountain down to perhaps 5-10% of what it used to be). So we are not entirely paperless even today. We have a "mixed" system, with most people accessing the documents via computer and just a few via paper.

/Claes

Guys,

Thank you very much for replying to my query!


Dear Energy,

Our ratio of computer to user is 1:1 so I guess there will be no additional purchases. There would be little or no resistance at all because all would be users are pc users.

So as Randy said, I really need our IT guys to help me map out our documentation before I even present the idea to management.

Would you give me a rough estimate on how long this process would take? Our docs are all in word and powerpoint.

Thanks,
Marla

Marla, if your docs are all in MSOffice, it should be relatively easy to just save them as web pages. I believe that there are ways to convert entire directories, once again IT should be able to assist you. I have always created everything in html, and even that goes quickly because you can just reformat your .doc .xls and import powerpoint web files. It all depends on the amount of documentation and how much time you can dedicate but you should be able to set up some sort of web based system and get your conversions done in 4-6 weeks easily even if you have a fairly large amount of documentation.

Marla,
The main reason to map it out is so you don't set up links and databases that once transfered, to the web page, lose the links. Using Excel for flow charts and links to forms can be a real value, plus conversion to HTML is simple.

Documents can stay in native format.

Here's an intro to one of my presentations on the topic:

Document Management Software



Background:

An organization wants to improve efficiency of document management by “grafting” a program over current legacy files and all newly-created files which will provide the following minimum benefits:



Ease of Search & Retrieval (on different fields/characteristics) Ensure only the most recent revision is available on standard Search menu Automate the procedure of notifying pertinent parties a document is ready for redlining Maintain an audit trail for the status of documents (released or waiting for checking/approval [and by whom]) Allow “full preview” of documents without opening native programs – i.e. AutoCAD documents can be viewed without latest revision of AutoCAD being resident on user’s computer. Permit “group printing” of documents, regardless of native file format. Maintain up to 30 security levels on any document, determining whether user has authority to create, modify, redline, view, print, copy, etc.

How do they work?

The primary feature of Document Control Software is a relational database which manipulates very small files called “metatags”, which relate to certain attributes of documents. Basic attributes are file name, revision level, author, topic, key words, type of file format, etc. which are used for field headings in the database.



By querying the database, a user retrieves a “menu” of documents which meet the search criteria. Self-contained viewing software permits a user to view and print documents, regardless of the native file format. The views can be scrolled, zoomed, and cropped (i.e. user can print an enlarged detail of a document.)



Users who have redline authority can markup documents without invoking the native file program (the redlines are saved as “overlays” in separate files without changing the original document.)



Users who have checking/approval/redline authority can be automatically notified via email when a document is ready for their review. The program will track when and whether the review is completed and maintain an audit trail for “real time” status reports on any or all documents in the review process.



By keying on the attribute “Revision level”, the program can ensure only the most recent, authorized revision is available to most users, reserving authority to view “superseded” documents to special categories of users.

An important consideration in grafting legacy documents into the new system is choosing fields pertinent to the organization. Many documents, like autocad and word documents have features which provide automatic tags (create date, author, department, etc.) [click on "properties" under File in a Word document to get an idea of already available fields.]

The problem is most users write documents which still show "valued customer" as the author because they have never explored the Properties feature.

An expense to consider is going back into each legacy document and adding the meta tags which allow for sorting and retrieval.

I hope this helps - there are many consultants like me who would come in and give your organization background on choosing the best brand for your organization. Caution is "Are they truly independent or do they have bias toward one brand?"

We use the properties window (avalaible in Excel & Word) to list the reason for change and the effective date. A disclaimer is on the bottom of documents mentioning it is the users responsibility to ensure their hardcopy matches the softcopy published...The publish date is in the document header which is then posted to an intranet site (as a pdf file) that is write locked to all the company but myself and the IT group to ensure security. Employees can retrieve original format documents and save them to their PC to make changes then route to others for approval before submitting the revised document. I then pdf and post the new document along with a company wide email containing a brief message about the change and the link as well. This avoids purchasing any kind of software and only needs a simple web page design eliminating huge amounts of IT time.

Hi Kel,

Woh....its been two weeks the last time I logged in. Well, basicallly
in your case, Paperless in the System, is very helpful. In our case,
our IT manage to set-up a database using Access database.
Try to study the value of setting up a paperless system, in terms
of cost, so that the management would try to evaluate your proposal.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Raffy

I have seen one company with a very good computerized documentation system, we can benchmark their system. Goin through Paperless not necessarily totally mean paperless, we still need to have a hard copy and it will need a study as raffy said. Need to consider a lot of things.

Bravo cove'rs,
The thread was very informative and thought provoking. Well! from the environmental angle: preserve trees. I believe pollution starts the moment you think of using a paper, unless the local stuff was made from non conventional raw materials.
Management of soft copies may be difficult if not properly done: retrievability relegated to software design ruggedness and maintenance, however it may be painless if done well. But the life of hard disk is not that predictable as the storage is. Backcopy in both places.
I think environmental angle should take up the score. If that wasn't there, the journey to easier storage through microfilming etc may not have seen light.
So Go for paperless.Marla Diaz

Wish you best of luck1
Thareja

I am in the process of helping a client to convert to a paperless system using Mind mapping software.
Attached is a screen shot example of this kind of format.
Wallace

Just a thought regarding the cost associated with attempting to gain and implement a paperless.
IMO FWIW, Purchasing the software appropriate for your needs (In this case Mind mapping software), the cost associated with the time creating and in-putting the information into your software system and, making it available office or organization wide, either on a single source PC or intranet wide.
Does this seem way too simplistic or what?
Wallace.

Just a thought regarding the cost associated with attempting to gain and implement a paperless.
IMO FWIW, Purchasing the software appropriate for your needs (In this case Mind mapping software), the cost associated with the time creating and in-putting the information into your software system and, making it available office or organization wide, either on a single source PC or intranet wide.
Does this seem way too simplistic or what?
Wallace.

Wallace

A word of warning - the cost of maintaining such a system is often vastly greater than the cost of setting it up. We find that many organisations choose to use (eg) Word, Excel or Visio because they can define their processes relatively easily at the start, but they then find that making changes and imposing any kind of consistency and corporate standards for presentation is nigh impossible as time goes by.

And even the way that the electronic system is generated and managed can have significant overheads. So the initial cost of the software has to be balanced against the resource required to maintain the system, and the downside of inconsistent format.

Peter,
Thanks for your experiential in-put.
I'm in the realty zone when it comes to realizing a paperless system. Were not quite there yet, however, I can only speak from experience that, by using appropriate software and networking it throughout an organization, causes in the long run, a cost saving regarding data management.
Relating to the software that I'm using to accomplish my goal of a paperless system (For the most part). Please feel free to have a look at the program at www.visual-mind.com you can download the program and try it for 30 days free.
Wallace
PS. Are you an Aberdeen FC man?
I'll forgive you if you are Peter, that's something coming from a Glasgow blue nose.

Peter,
Thanks for your experiential in-put.
I'm in the realty zone when it comes to realizing a paperless system. Were not quite there yet, however, I can only speak from experience that, by using appropriate software and networking it throughout an organization, causes in the long run, a cost saving regarding data management.
Relating to the software that I'm using to accomplish my goal of a paperless system (For the most part). Please feel free to have a look at the program at www.visual-mind.com you can download the program and try it for 30 days free.
Wallace
PS. Are you an Aberdeen FC man?
I'll forgive you if you are Peter, that's something coming from a Glasgow blue nose.

Wallace (or are you the Lone Ranger?)

Fit like, as we say in the North East.

Even if I was an AFC fan (rugby is my game, although Scotland aren't doing too well there either), I wouldn't admit to supporting AFC in their present state - the concept of "quality" seems strangely alien in their context! Lots of room for continual improvement, though.

I am interested in the idea of using mind maps for this. I know of a number of folk who swear by them, but I have found that they often work better for the people using them rather than for other viewers. It may be the fact that people's minds work in different ways. We use a simple two-level list structure for process definitions with a supporting document register, both having a group / item format. It means that you can structure the group level to make it easy for a viewer to find the "section" they want, and the numbering structure then determines the sequence.

Links to documents (forms, checklists, work instructions etc) are easy if they exist on the network - the trick can be in defining the processes in such a way that they are "integrated" into a cohesive system. One key point is that the published system should be readable in an ordinary web browser (although they are anything but "standard") - I don't like it when you need extra software before you can access the published system.

But you are right about an online system - data management is easier, the system is easier to keep up to date, and users actually use it!

Peter,
Thanks for your experiential in-put.
I'm in the realty zone when it comes to realizing a paperless system. Were not quite there yet, however, I can only speak from experience that, by using appropriate software and networking it throughout an organization, causes in the long run, a cost saving regarding data management.
Relating to the software that I'm using to accomplish my goal of a paperless system (For the most part). Please feel free to have a look at the program at www.visual-mind.com you can download the program and try it for 30 days free.
Wallace
PS. Are you an Aberdeen FC man?
I'll forgive you if you are Peter, that's something coming from a Glasgow blue nose.

:topic: Been to a couple games shown out your way a couple years ago. Have you made any NARSA conventions?

Peter,
Thanks for the banter, I sure miss it living here in Ontario Canada. :D

Peter, if your interested in the Visual Mind software (Let me know if you are), I'll arrange for complimentary seial keys to be forwarded to you (Just send me a private message and we'll go from there).
I have to say that, using the tools and techniques of PC mind mapping software has literaly revolutionized my way of organizing myself in either a business or personal manner. I too know of many folk who use widely available mind mapping software for business purposes. It's very clear though that, the tools and techniques of Mind mapping for business relating to the, creation, development and distribution of knowledge is and has been missinterpreted to the point of Mind mapping being seen as an off the wall form of communication.
I personally have had great success, sharing the Visual Mind software in particular with Businesses of all sizes who wish to explore the possibilities of making their particular information economy profitable to the point of realizing the continuous improvement opportunities related to standardizing their knowledge base through the tools and techniques of Mind mapping.
I have recently successfuly mapped out a quality system using Visual mind and, the success was realized by the registrar audit of the setup. The registrar has contacted me asking for more information regarding Visual Mind software, their interest was for potential use within their particular fields of QMS set-up and auditing.
Wallace.

Peter,
I missed your off topic question.
Yes I occasionaly turn up for some Rangers matches (Usually Old firm games) and behave like a young hooligan (Some things shall never change).
NARSA, well I know all about those guys, my brother (Graham Tait) is the president of the Hamilton Ontario Rangers supporters club
Wallace.

It was me, not Peter...

I used to be a member of Motown Loyal in a past life. I'm sure I've met your brother. Hamilton has a nice club.

Sorry for the name mix up Mustang.
Motown Loyal? I know a few guys form there and, I've visited there a few times too, travelling from Sarnia. Do you know of Tam Plunkett?
Wallace.

Extremely well. I used to live with him.

Yeah,
Tam knows me all right.
I've always had a high regard for Tam.
Wallace.

Tam knows everybody! He's a good man.
That means I've probably met you too. Small world.

Mustang,
You've just got to let me know who you are in reality.
Wallace.

Can a paperless system involve eliminations of hard copy records/documents and full file cabinets by scanning in the originals to computer files and disposing of the hard copies?
I am sure many of you are filling up file cabinets, and storage areas with boxes of documents with limited space. Is scanning to computer files acceptable for ISO or TS 16949? I cannot find any reference to this in the standards.

Scanning is acceptable and has worked for me in the past. Not only are the records backed up but they remain legible, identifiable and retrievable. IMO it is much safer to maintain records electronically as they are less susceptible to damage. Ultimately, it is up to the organization to decide how they will maintain documents and records. Hope this helps

Can a paperless system involve eliminations of hard copy records/documents and full file cabinets by scanning in the originals to computer files and disposing of the hard copies?Yes, I agree with Mshell. The type of media is irrelevant as long as the documents remain legible, identifiable and retrievable.

/Claes

See ISO9001:2000 4.2.1 - NOTE 3 The documentation can be in any form or type of medium.

Thanks for the input.
I understand about the systems documents and procedures, but was unsure about the actual records verifying the results, such as checksheet and X bar and R charts.
Appreciate your help :bigwave:

Thanks for the input.
I understand about the systems documents and procedures, but was unsure about the actual records verifying the results, such as checksheet and X bar and R charts.
Appreciate your help :bigwave:Scan is fine for legacy documents (already created.)

At some point, you may acquire digital instruments for inspection which directly input data into computer record where they can be manipulated to your heart's content. Given that, only the hard data needs be retained, since the reports (xbar and R charts) for any given time period or machine or operator can be generated any time. This is a big consideration when considering file storage and retrieving files.

Just a thought that comes up with paperless systems:

How many of us "computer savvy" quality people here also have a drawer full of paper documents within the grasp of our fingertips, "just in case" :mg:

I don't believe there will be any type of hard document-less in our lifetime, whether it be paper, plastic or good old fasioned canvas. The technology is not there just yet to preclude deletions, copies, renames etc... or just plain old human error or deviousness.

Al...

We moved to a paperless system 3 years ago and it is wonderful. The auditors love it also. It works great for us because 80 locations use the same system and it is all online. I could go on and on about the benefits but you can go to www.qualtrax.com to see our specific program.

I started developing a paperless system 3 years ago, but took an alternative route to the usually very costly and unweildy off the shelf solutions offered commercially.

My first step was to design a document control database using Microsoft Access that listed all our procedures and work instructions etc in one place, and had fields for noting down changes and different revision levels etc..

I then gathered all the paperbased forms, procedures work instructions etc that I couldn't locate original word or excel files for and scanned them into Acrobat PDF documents. Orginals were also printed into PDF format.

All documents and PDF files were loaded onto a shared network drive and protected by main server daily backup procedures. The master documents and PDFs were also hyperlinked from the document control database.

This went down great with our assement body as I could quickly and easily show revisions, and the number of changes to the documented system since his last visit by simply running a date based query and report.

Phase two was to change the old quality policy manual itself from paper (now pdf) to fully electronic.

I taught myself to write webpages in xhtml and CSS (loads of free online tutorials, and you can get your markup code validated for free by W3C which is the group that sets international standards for web launguages so all browsers can read them).

I also used free software (1stpage 2000) but you could also use microsoft word, frontpage, dreamweaver or even notepad if you know markup language well enough.

The website was written up and loaded onto our Company Intranet. Shortcuts were placed onto the desktops of every PC in the organisation.

Our policy was visible to all employees, as were our objectives and our organisational chart.

Process flows and interaction diagrams became truly interactive as clicking on a graphic or link immediately drilled down to the next level procedure or work instruction.

A simple java script shows when the particular page was last updated.

The old pdf procedures and work instructions that were still valid were accessed from a webpage query that linked directly to the aforementioned document control database. All pdf files contain a watermark that states "Document uncontrolled when printed".

I put on educational sections about TS16949, powerpoint presentations relating to new products or improvement programmes, customer specific requirements and external links to customer sites and supplier portals. All our external audit reports are available for anyone to review. I also later added links to sites that contained information about the products we make components for and much more.

The site is constantly under development and improvement, I feel like I am still only just scratching the surface.

The paper system is almost gone but not completely as we still have control plans and drawings in pertinent manufacturing areas, but it is so much easier to control hard copy issues now.

My advice to anyone wishing to try is take the plunge, make friends with your IT manager, and be prepared to put in hours and hours of sometimes frustrating, sometimes boring hard work.

One tip is to make sure you standardise your web browsers throughout your company as there are STILL minor annoying differences between the way microsoft, netscape, mozilla, firefox et al interpret html markup code.

It's all worth it in the end though. I would hate to go back to a completely paper based system.

I have since been asked by our MD to write up a corporate presentation for a major customers visit as a standalone website they could browse through in the boardroom whenever they were asked about anything specific to the project. Success in capturing this order would increase our annual turnover by over £9million in 2007.

We are currently planning our expansion programme, building new machines and recruiting and training new staff!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Well done, Dave!

I am seriously looking at building a doc control app in Access later this year. Our software is pretty good, but we did not keep up the costly maintenance agreement, and are many versions behind in a software that is really overkill.

I have posted about the system we use on a number of threads , this being the first time I recommended it:

Free Document Control Software (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6418)

and I even wrote a couple of books for administrators and end users (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=66719&postcount=16) from this thread (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7498&page=2)

There is a lot about paperless systems on this site so take your time and search (use a few different parameters and keywords)

We have been using this system for years and it has proved an enormously reliable resource and it's FREE. I am in no way associated with this software but am an advocate of it.. Try it you may be surprised.

Thanks Joe, and good luck!

Greg, that system looks great - my SQL and php is one of my planned developments, and it should be a snip to integrate with my existing database tables and website.

(I'm always an advocate of using any software that isn't from micro$oft.
Now if I could just get my head around Linux based OS's I'd be using that instead of eXPensive, but that's a home project when I get time...)

Mr. Bucey,

Do you know where can I get a paperless documentation software like you have?

Thanks.