We are a coil processing plant that does work for suppliers of the big 3. Our coils range anywhere from 8,000 to 60,000 lbs. when shipped. My question is this. Are we considered a "bulk material" subcontractor and need to follow the criteria in the new 3rd edition of PPAP for bulk material (Which seems slightly easier and closer to what we do)? One last thing. The coils are given a production number from the customer. Does this automaticly make it production material and the standard PPAP needs to be performed?
Please help.

For my meaning, bulk material is like chemicals or paint that you mix in a tank. It has the same properties all through the tank. After packaging, every bottles still have the same properties.
So, I think your product is not bulk material.

Dewie's right. You are NOT a bulk supplier. You MAY BE and most likely are a raw material supplier. Yes, you are subject to PPAP if you are gearing toward QS-9000. After all, you are responsible for ensuring consistent chemical, metallurgical, and physical properties from coil-to-coil and shipment-to-shipment. The purpose of this is so that the users of the steel can be assured that their product will come out the same time and time again. I'm sure we all know what variations in our raw materials can do to us. If you have selected a registrar already, ask your registrar. And of course, you can always ask your customer to determine their expectations. For, no matter what any of us write here, if your customer wants "it" a certain way, that's the way!

The 3rd edition of PPAP states in appendix F that bulk steel/coils are examples of bulk material. We are a final processor. we are not manufacturing the steel. It is confusing. I am going to follow your advice and just do the regular "PPAP"

I am referring to 4th edition of PPAP manual. It does not say that coil is an example of a bulk material.

Per the manual these are the examples of bulk material.

Examples of bulk material include, but are not limited to: adhesives and sealants (solders, elastomers); chemicals (rinses, polishes, additives, treatments, colors/pigments, solvents); coatings (top coats, undercoats, primers, phosphates, surface treatments); engine coolants (antifreeze); fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); foundry (sand/silica, alloying materials, other minerals/ores); fuels and fuel components; glass and glass components; lubricants (oils, greases, etc.); monomers, pre-polymers and polymers (rubbers, plastics, resins and their precursors); and performance fluids (transmission, power steering, brake, refrigerant).

Hope it helps to all fellow coves !

Hardik Someshvar

It looks like they include coils to me.
Quote:
Examples of bulk material include, but are not limited to: adhesives and sealants (solders, elastomers); chemicals (rinses, polishes, additives, treatments, colors/pigments, solvents); coatings (top coats, undercoats, primers, phosphates, surface treatments); engine coolants (antifreeze); fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); foundry (sand/silica, alloying materials, other minerals/ores); fuels and fuel components; glass and glass components; lubricants (oils, greases, etc.); monomers, pre-polymers and polymers (rubbers, plastics, resins and their precursors); and performance fluids (transmission, power steering, brake, refrigerant).

I am referring to 4th edition of PPAP manual. It does not say that coil is an example of a bulk material.

Per the manual these are the examples of bulk material.
Examples of bulk material include, but are not limited to: adhesives and sealants (solders, elastomers); chemicals (rinses, polishes, additives, treatments, colors/pigments, solvents); coatings (top coats, undercoats, primers, phosphates, surface treatments); engine coolants (antifreeze); fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); foundry (sand/silica, alloying materials, other minerals/ores); fuels and fuel components; glass and glass components; lubricants (oils, greases, etc.); monomers, pre-polymers and polymers (rubbers, plastics, resins and their precursors); and performance fluids (transmission, power steering, brake, refrigerant).

Emphasis added. It always pays to read what you're quoting. :D

I am referring to 4th edition of PPAP manual. It does not say that coil is an example of a bulk material.

Per the manual these are the examples of bulk material.


Hope it helps to all fellow coves !

Hardik Someshvar



As an auditor, I would accept that this phrase - fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); - could apply to bulk, master coils. I would not apply it to slit final coils, without some further discussion and review. :2cents:

As an auditor, I would accept that this phrase - fabrics; film and film laminates; ferrous and non-ferrous metals (bulk steel, aluminum, coils, ingots); - could apply to bulk, master coils. I would not apply it to slit final coils, without some further discussion and review. :2cents:

As an auditor, I hope you would honor what the standard clearly says, and not your own interpretation of it. I think that coiled metal is an appropriate member of the bulk material population, because there's usually no way to sample anything other than the ends until it's too late, whether the material has been slit or not.

As an auditor, I hope you would honor what the standard clearly says, and not your own interpretation of it. I think that coiled metal is an appropriate member of the bulk material population, because there's usually no way to sample anything other than the ends until it's too late, whether the material has been slit or not.

Yes, but what if the coil is not a bulk coil (to be cut and further processed) but is a coil spring, which is installed in a suspension system as it is received from the supplier? I would hope that this component would get the full treatment.

The word "coil" appears between "bulk steel, aluminum," and "ingots" in the standard.

If the standard said "spark plugs, steering wheels, coils and brake pads", then the decision would be clearer.

Thanks Dean and Jim.

I would make sure that I throughly read through what I am posting.

I have a small question here. In case of bulk material, how would you go about the PPAP?

Our bulk material suppliers are self certified and does no need to go through customer PPAP.

Yes, but what if the coil is not a bulk coil (to be cut and further processed) but is a coil spring, which is installed in a suspension system as it is received from the supplier? I would hope that this component would get the full treatment.

The word "coil" appears between "bulk steel, aluminum," and "ingots" in the standard.

If the standard said "spark plugs, steering wheels, coils and brake pads", then the decision would be clearer.

This is quite a stretch, Craig. It seems clear to me that inclusion of "coils" in the quoted context describes coiled sheet metal (and wire) and not springs, garden hoses, or electronic components such as RF coils (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Ind-RFCoils/Ind-RFCoils-2.html). Further definition would be superfluous when the meaning is apparent from the context.

Added in edit: Generally speaking, even rolled materials such as fabric are considered bulk materials for the same reason that coil is. In general, the criteria for inclusion are that the material is some form of liquid or powder such as oil, paint or plating solutions, or are delivered in a form that prohibits random inspection (with random defined as all portions of the inspected material having an equal chance of being selected in an inspection sample).

Craig,

Yes, I also understood the coils as spring coils and i don't think they would be considered in bulk material category. It has to go through normal route of PPAP.

Jim,

Your comments as to how would you go for bulk PPAP would would be highly appreciated.

Jim,

Your comments as to how would you go for bulk PPAP would would be highly appreciated.

Please explain what you mean by "go for bulk PPAP." Are you the customer or the supplier? If the materials you're dealing with qualify as bulk materials, the AIAG PPAP manual explains the requirements.

This is quite a stretch, Craig. It seems clear to me that inclusion of "coils" in the quoted context describes coiled sheet metal (and wire) and not springs, garden hoses, or electronic components such as RF coils (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Ind-RFCoils/Ind-RFCoils-2.html). Further definition would be superfluous when the meaning is apparent from the context.


Jim, it looks to me that we essentially agree, although I am not sure what the "stretch" is. Spark plugs, maybe? I was trying to exaggerate to make my point. Grouping coils with ingots would imply a different coil than when coil is grouped with steering wheel.

As an auditor, I hope you would honor what the standard clearly says, and not your own interpretation of it. I think that coiled metal is an appropriate member of the bulk material population, because there's usually no way to sample anything other than the ends until it's too late, whether the material has been slit or not.


Now, Jimmy, you know darn well I will honor everything the "Good Book" says...

Actually, the intent of my comment was to say that I am very comfortable applying bulk material PPAP rules to a master coil. I think that is clearly the intent.

Since slit coils are much further along, it might require a little further review. In other words, I wouldn't make a blanket statement on it. I think I would apply the same logic to bar stock cut to lengths, etc.

I would want to verify it before I would make a simple blanket statement.

Thanks Dean and Jim.

I would make sure that I throughly read through what I am posting.

I have a small question here. In case of bulk material, how would you go about the PPAP?

Our bulk material suppliers are self certified and does no need to go through customer PPAP.

In automotive, bulk suppliers do not "self-certify." The basis for a bulk PPAP is that the material being discussed has been approved by the OE customers, thus saving the supplier from repeatedly PPAPing the same stuff, over and over.

Let's remember, the purpose for Bulk PPAP is to save redundant approvals for the same material over and over. It is validated once, to the customers' satisfaction, then intermediate suppliers may freely use THAT material.

That is also why, when we discuss going to cut stock or slit coils, it may apply, or may not. It would ahve to be verified.

Bulk Materials:

Are products that do not have the characteristics of formed parts when received, but which become part of the product during the manufacturing process. (The Quality Portal Glossary)

Also discussed in this thread: http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18626

Stijloor.

Jim,

Your comments as to how would you go for bulk PPAP would would be highly appreciated.

First and foremost - Start with the Customer. Regardless of your interpretation of whether the "bulk material" rules apply here it ultimately comes down to what the Customer has defined your submission requirements to be. As a coil processor I try to get my Customer's to concur with me on the use of the Bulk Materials Checklist, and define what will be submitted for the PPAP and send them a copy of it to sign-off of for approval.

We also process sheet material and for the most part Customer's are fairly adamant about a "normal" PPAP. Regardless of the submission level the same amount of work is required.

For automotiva industry, bulk material is everything that still does not have defined form, or either PART.

Do you understands ?

For my meaning, bulk material is like chemicals or paint that you mix in a tank. It has the same properties all through the tank. After packaging, every bottles still have the same properties.
So, I think your product is not bulk material.


My definition for material in bulk is: Everything what still it does not have definite form (continue process, sampling is equivalent 100% of inspection). Example: Panel of the car, the supplied plastic is bulk material (without form it defines) after the molding of exactly forming the part, yes is considered a part there.