Hello Group,

An interesting discussion is blooming in another thread…..so let's move it here…

Where does "Quality" begin?

Does it begin in the initial sales function? Maybe in job shops, but not in OEM for consumer goods.

Does it begin in the design function? In the prototyping function? Manufacturing?

What are your thoughts?

CarolX

Carol:

I would say that it depends.

If the product or service being sold is a "one off" or made to order, then the sales function starts the quality ball rolling by making sure that all customer requirements are understood.

If the product or service being sold is made ahead of time, then quality starts with the design phase, with input from potentiual customers (ideally).

In other words, quality starts when the requirements for the product or service are determined.

Let's take computers. For Dell, who makes their computers to order, it is critical that their customer service (sales) reps know the product and can ask questions of the customer to "design" a computer as it is being orderer.

Many other computer manufacturers, though, gauge what they think the market wants in a computer, and builds many of them to the same spec. The determination of this spec (which I would guess also includes a price point) is where quality starts. Using this scenario, if I buy one of these computers, but I want a DVD player and one isn't included, a technician or I have to open the box up again and put the device in, which is not very effecient.

Anyhow, that's my opinion, for what its worth.

Craig

Hello Group,

An interesting discussion is blooming in another thread…..so let's move it here…

Where does "Quality" begin?



I think it ultimately begins with the Head Honcho and how he operates the business. Even before a Salesperson communicates with a customer, or R&D works on the next great thing, or anything else happens in the process of making a customer happy with your product or service, the Head Honcho, through his/her actions, philosophies, policies, and behavior to a great extent determines what kind of "quality" the organization will provide. JMO.

[QUOTE=Mike S.]I think it ultimately begins with the Head Honcho and how he operates the business. QUOTE]
I agree with this idea of Mike S.
An excerpt from my ASQ Profile reads:
My entire career has been centered on the concept ‘Quality should be involved in every aspect of a company - including executive planning, administration, marketing, purchasing, design, production, shipping, and service.’

This concept holds true whether the company is a manufacturer or service company (banking, insurance, communications, transportation, construction, janitorial, etc.) The major emphasis is on pleasing or delighting the customer while maintaining or increasing organizational profitability. (In the case of non-profits, does the organization's performance delight both recipients and the contributors? If so, the organization will continue to thrive.)

I think it ultimately begins with the Head Honcho and how he operates the business. Even before a Salesperson communicates with a customer, or R&D works on the next great thing, or anything else happens in the process of making a customer happy with your product or service, the Head Honcho, through his/her actions, philosophies, policies, and behavior to a great extent determines what kind of "quality" the organization will provide. JMO.


OK, Mike, I will agree that your answer is right, too. I took the question as refering to a process, with a beginning and an end (with feedback loops, of course).

If a "quality" process has not been put into place (by Senor Head Honcho), then things won't work very well. Same thing if the atmosphere (environment) is not right.

In other words, if there is no good plan to catch the voice of the customer, or the execution of that plan is not good, then we should not expect good results.

Craig

Craig,

I love your example of Dell....let me take it a step further...and we will use computers as an example....and you can apply this to a variety of things.

How many of you have experience the "blue screen of death". Now, I know this is not an issue for the computer makers, it is a software issue...but I must ask...why didn't the computer manufactures pound BillyBob and MickeySoft on this issue? Perhaps they did...and it was kept quiet. But this industry proves that "Quality", or customer satisfaction, is not formost on the platter.

I can think of several more examples of this...and I think Mike is right...if the process doesn't start with the Head Honcho, it never will

Just some thoughts from the shortimer!

CarolX

Craig,
Just some thoughts from the shortimer!
CarolX"Shortimer"??!!!
Say it ain't so. Shortimers are old guys, hoping to live long enough (two or three weeks or so) to retire and collect at least one pension check.

Wow, Carol, going out with a bang? Are you asking where does what should be quality start, or where does quality start. You could get different answers for sure, just look at what we have so far, lol.

Quality should begin with the first thought of a new product/service. But that doesn't always happen, does it? witness the "blue screen of death" and many other annoying or just plain rotten "features" we have to put up with in computer/software products. But like Craig and Mike have so very aptly put it, where quality starts depends on what type of product, and its marketing strategies we are talking about.

How about instead of the old philosophical standby "I think, therefore I am" we start a new one: "I envision quality, therefore I produce quality"?

How about instead of the old philosophical standby "I think, therefore I am" we start a new one: "I envision quality, therefore I produce quality"?
Talk about WOW.....Steel, that is the best!!!!

You better tm that before someone snatches it!!! LOL.

CX

Quality starts with the least satisfied repeat customer.

How about instead of the old philosophical standby "I think, therefore I am" we start a new one: "I envision quality, therefore I produce quality"?

Oh wow! This is like the Quality Zen group! I think Quality, therefore I am Quality. See the Quality - Feel the Quality - Be the Quality.

Totally agree.

Why does Quality need to have a beginning? That implies it has an end.

What came first? Quality or the Nonconformance? One could argue that our evolutionary cousins from the past thought that rubbing sticks together was the Quality method to make fire...until one of them couldn't find any sticks one day, I guess.

Quality, to me, is not just a process nor an aspect to a process...it simply is. Everyone has a role to play from the person who sweeps the floor at night to the person who signs my pay cheque. It is inherent to all that we do...then we find a newer, better way to do things and that becomes the Quality way to do it.

For what it's worth, I think "Quality" is the degree to which the customer perception is realized. Ergo, quality (from the consumer's side) cannot begin until the customer perceives the end result. Everything else is simply someone else's perception of quality and may or may not satisfy the needs of the consumer. Once the customer states his perception, quality begins. This perception/requirement forms the blueprint for the quality of the product made to satisfy the customer's order.

Dave

Where does "Quality" begin?
Great subject Carol....

Ok, here's my angle:

I would say that it begins every morning, when I see that familiar face in the bathroom mirror (yikes! :eek: ). and two things happens:

I wake up with a start!
I realize that I see a reflection of a bloke who is about to do the best he can today...
I am responsible for how I perform (and so is everybody else, of course - including the head honcho)... simple as that...

/Claes

Craig,

I love your example of Dell....let me take it a step further...and we will use computers as an example....and you can apply this to a variety of things.

How many of you have experience the "blue screen of death". Now, I know this is not an issue for the computer makers, it is a software issue...but I must ask...why didn't the computer manufactures pound BillyBob and MickeySoft on this issue? Perhaps they did...and it was kept quiet. But this industry proves that "Quality", or customer satisfaction, is not formost on the platter.

CarolX

Having just purchased a Dell, based on hearing good things about them, it's all about Sales. Not Quality as most of us envision it. I was going to purchase a "Refurbished" unit sans monitor, etc. Cheap. "What if I could get you new for the same price?", the Dell rep asked. Sure thing. Razzle dazzle. Not repeating what Carol has said about Mickeysoft, it's nice to know that I now have to visit all my existing hardware (digital camera, scanner, printer) sites and download drivers to use it, which do not guarantee 100% operation as before. Many programs I enjoyed with windows 98 do not work anymore. Hey, I understand. Buyer beware. Here's the capper. Built in CD burner. Great. Opened it up and NO 3 1/2" floppy drive. Looked at the component/spec sheet and it said "Not requested". Who would think to ask if something as basic as this was an option? That's not Customer Satisfaction as the driver. It's all about sales and the customer is a distant third. JMHO And as Carol has also said, this scheme can be applied to many other well known businesses. Quality? Well, they take them back quick if they break. Who cares what went wrong. ;)

Quality begins and ends with the customer.

According to the book, History in English Words, Plato wanted to create a simple word for turning a vague feeling into a clear thought. So he came up with the word "poiotes", meaning "whatness" or "of what kind". Cicero translated the greek word into latin as "qualitas".

So, in the manner that Quality Function Deployment attempts to convert a customer's "vague feelings" into clear specifications, quality is a term that tells us "of what kind" something is. It may be "good" quality (e.g. "conforms to specifications" - Crosby), or "bad" quality (e.g. "loss imparted to society from the
time the product is shipped" - Taguchi).

But I am getting way too serious here.

So then, quality is what prompts us to ask, "Whatness?" or in my case, "Huh?"

Having just purchased a Dell, based on hearing good things about them, it's all about Sales. ...............Well, they take them back quick if they break. Who cares what went wrong. ;)
energy,

Your experience pretty much sums up what I see in many consumer industries today. Especially those related to technology (i.e. computers, cell phones, isp). Sell the product......and we will dazzle them with our return policy.

But I do believe that as the industry matures, this policy will change. They may be forced to. All it takes will be one competitor who will put quality over sales.

And as for your 3.5 floppy.....they are about to go the way of the "original" floppy (OK - so I really prove how old I am...LOL).

Carol

Floppy? What's a floppy? :vfunny:

Kids these days! :vfunny:

5.25" floppy discs were the latest thing when I used to fix all the BASIC programming errors after loading the program from a cassette tape. :rolleyes:

Actually Dell usually rates as the highest quality PC and service both and it has been rates that way for years. Of course, everything is relative.

Sheriff, FWIW I think you can get an external USB floppy drive for just a few bucks if you need one. I know, us older folk just assume they will be there, but they are being phased out now.

As for new computer toys, I like the little USB drives not much bigger than a pen that store 32MB to 512 MB starting for like $20. Wow.

Quality begins and ends with the customer.

This is the ultimate answer. If the customer expects high quality and you want them to buy the product from you, you will have to have high quality. Demands by the customers dictate the overall quality level. If you make a TV that lasts 20 years and not a single customer keeps them longer than 10 what is the point?

In todays society, a throw-away society - quality is in constant change. Quality can not be built into the product, it has to be designed in. Through the processes and the designing quality will take a life of its own. Hopefully we can guide this life to higher levels through continual improvements.

So I am going to shut up now, before I start beleiving this stuff. :biglaugh:

Opened it up and NO 3 1/2" floppy drive. Looked at the component/spec sheet and it said "Not requested". Who would think to ask if something as basic as this was an option? That's not Customer Satisfaction as the driver.

In the case of the 3 1/2", surveys showed that less than 10% of customers use them anymore. They take up space and resources that can be used by other things. So, computer manufacturers are phasing them out. The bad thing is, as you found out, that they don't tell you the drive is not included. Had a friend that bought a Dell laptop (without a 3 1/2). The start up procedure suggested making a "rescue disk". Guess where it told them to insert the disk?

To answer your question, Carol...Quality begins with Engineering :smokin: So when you get over there, don't forget it (and us)

This is the ultimate answer.

I think the problem I have with saying that Quality begins and ends with the Customer, is that so in-tune with ISO 9001. What about the other stakeholders? Do they reap any benefits from this Quality concept?

Don't get me wrong, I want a happy Customer, but Quality should go above and beyond them. Quality is the fulfillment of requirements...anyone's requirements...not just the Customers'. We either meet all requirements or we do not.

To paraphrase Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try."

I would agree that quality needs to begin at the top, but it also begins with an understanding. Everyone needs to have an understanding of quality and its impact. You could basically use a scare tactic. If people realize that poor quality can cost them their jobs, I'm sure they will pay more attantion to quality :)

As far as what process does quality begin with, I don't think you can limit it to any one process. If one process has poor quality, it doesn't matter if the rest are perfect. In essence this brings us back to the idea of understanding quality when developing the process.

I think the problem I have with saying that Quality begins and ends with the Customer, is that so in-tune with ISO 9001. What about the other stakeholders? Do they reap any benefits from this Quality concept?

Don't get me wrong, I want a happy Customer, but Quality should go above and beyond them. Quality is the fulfillment of requirements...anyone's requirements...not just the Customers'. We either meet all requirements or we do not.

To paraphrase Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try."

Good point, but other than the customer (the paying customer) how do we create funds to continue to meet the ever increasing demands for quality. I do agree with the fact that it has to start with every individual and come together in a group effort to acheive the quality objectives.

Quality costs - and someone has to pay for it. That someone is the customer. The old saying can apply - The masses are a$$es. If the masses want lower quality then manufacturers give them that. IMHO - In general the level of quality tends to rise and fall with the customers expectations. Unfortunate but true in a lot of cases.

Obsolete techology (how 'bout the 8" floppy that was between cassettes and the 5.25") and gratuituous move quotes from Yoda in the same thread. I love the Cove!

Good question, CX. BTW, remember that a lot of us here are Engineers by education and choice but Quality by necessity and OJT. Come back and ask us some engineering type questions!

IMHO, quality doesn't begin or end. It's a circle that goes from the first perception that your (potential) customer gets, whether it is word of mouth from a satisfied customer, seeing the product on the shelf at Wal*Mart or having an encounter with your sales or marketing force. It runs through all of your management, sales, marketing, engineering, purchasing, manufacturing, and shipping operations. Then it goes right back out to the users that will develop their own perceptions based on their encounters with the most recent product.

Customer specifications, requirements, etc. for your company to fulfill will never come through your front door unless the (potential) customer has somehow developed a positive perception of your capability to impact their business.

I'm with Claes on this - Quality begins with ME.

Bill

I'm with Claes on this - Quality begins with ME.

Bill

And when "quality" is not achieved, we will blame the two of you! :vfunny:

Good point, but other than the customer (the paying customer) how do we create funds to continue to meet the ever increasing demands for quality. I do agree with the fact that it has to start with every individual and come together in a group effort to acheive the quality objectives.

Quality costs - and someone has to pay for it. That someone is the customer. The old saying can apply - The masses are a$$es. If the masses want lower quality then manufacturers give them that. IMHO - In general the level of quality tends to rise and fall with the customers expectations. Unfortunate but true in a lot of cases.

Quality is meeting the requirements. It's not so much lower Quality, but rather they've just loosened their restrictions, allowed the tolerances to widen...but as long as we've met the requirements, it's a Quality product...it may not be top-notch, grade A, high level stuff, but it's still Quality.

As for funds, not all money-in-the-coffers comes from the paying Customer. What about the money saved by having happy Employees?...these are the people who stay, so training costs are down, are aware of their surroundings so medical aids are down, and know what they're doing so productivity is efficient.

What about the money invested by the Shareholders?...these are the people who believe that we produce a Quality product at a profit and deem us as a suitable investment.

What about the money saved/returned from the Community?...these are the people who send us tax breaks, refunds due to environmentally-friendly programmes, and promote us to others (free advertising).

What about our Suppliers? These are the people with whom we develop "mutually beneficial" relationships that can lead to cost savings, stream-lined processes, and effective communication.

So, maybe the question needs to be more specific. "Where does Quality begin with xxx?"...if we're going to believe the Quality has a start and stop point. I still believe otherwise, though - Quality is an integrated component to all that we do, it is not a process unto itself.

and gratuituous move quotes from Yoda in the same thread.

You know...I sometimes think that Yoda had the perfect Quality Policy in that statement.

And when "quality" is not achieved, we will blame the two of you! :vfunny:

Errrrr.... Right. That's been known to happen. :rolleyes:

/Claes

IMHO, quality doesn't begin or end. It's a circle that goes from the first perception that your (potential) customer gets, whether it is word of mouth from a satisfied customer, seeing the product on the shelf at Wal*Mart or having an encounter with your sales or marketing force. It runs through all of your management, sales, marketing, engineering, purchasing, manufacturing, and shipping operations. Then it goes right back out to the users that will develop their own perceptions based on their encounters with the most recent product.

Customer specifications, requirements, etc. for your company to fulfill will never come through your front door unless the (potential) customer has somehow developed a positive perception of your capability to impact their business.

I have to agree IM. I recently had an experience with the company that provides Wally-World with their store brand of garbage bags that illustrates this.

My wife purchased a box of W-M's garbage bags which I opened only to find that every bag in the box was opened at both ends (makes it kinda hard to take the garbage out ;) ). After calling the toll-free number noted on the box and explaining my lack of satisfaction, I was assured that the company was thankful for my communication and that they would "make it right".

Three weeks later I received via UPS a large box with 4 boxes of large garbage bags and 6 boxes of kitchen size garbage bags (all of which have been properly manufactured) along with a letter of apology actually signed by both the President of the company and the VP of Quality.

With this demonstration of concern for the customer, I will continue to purchase their product (they now have a loyal customer). But during the three weeks prior to them "making it right" my wife and I were procuring from another source, not from a lack of customer loyalty (although there was that factor) but from a lack of willingness to throw our money away.

Quality SHOULD be demonstratable from ALL areas of the business. :bigwave:

Quality is meeting the requirements. It's not so much lower Quality, but rather they've just loosened their restrictions, allowed the tolerances to widen...but as long as we've met the requirements, it's a Quality product...it may not be top-notch, grade A, high level stuff, but it's still Quality.

So true! As a customer I may require a throw-away, inexpensive widget that accomplishes the task desired and then can be disposed; or I may expect the everlasting, ultra expensive, three-handled, moss-covered family credunza that will meet my every need and last me a lifetime.

So, maybe the question needs to be more specific. "Where does Quality begin with xxx?"...if we're going to believe the Quality has a start and stop point. I still believe otherwise, though - Quality is an integrated component to all that we do, it is not a process unto itself.

Quality IS a state of mind. It is treating others as we would like to be treated - in action. It is a lifestyle (Ask my kids!). But, it is also a measurable trait of a process or product, and it is this dichotomy that makes it so difficult to define.

But with out both the personal commitment (throughout the organization) and the measurable process/product characteristics our company's struggle to maintain customers and profitability.

Hello Group,

An interesting discussion is blooming in another thread…..so let's move it here…

Where does "Quality" begin?

Does it begin in the initial sales function? Maybe in job shops, but not in OEM for consumer goods.

Does it begin in the design function? In the prototyping function? Manufacturing?

What are your thoughts?

CarolX


Well.. . . I look at it like this. . .Like Physics, Quality has and does exist. . . it takes the right mind to dicsover and truly understand it's nature.

Perceive a little thing, and trigger for quality has already been pressed.
Before the quality requirement takes a shape, mind quotient gets blessed
The specs spin in continuous improvement cycle, with mind in quest,
So, Quality standards begin to evolve, with quality go getters keen jest.

Thareja

a poem
Quality: in its essence

The entity of Quality, is in the act of doing “First Time, every time, Right”
It is to conform to the excellence of not actions, but the attitude of fidelity
Calling for unfettering involvement in processes, for ultimate goal in sight,
Quality calls for enduring approach, who collaborates mission with might

Quality simply said, is a permanence of pleasure as in a life-long sentence,
Of a gut feeling of not only satisfaction of specifications in total reference,
but also delight of having exceeded all expectations one may cognizance,
Quality is quantitative measure of perfection of the customer’s preference.

Perceive a little thing, and trigger for quality has already been pressed.
Before the quality requirement takes a shape, the quotient gets blessed
The specs spin in continuous improvement cycle, with mind in quest,
So, Quality standards begin to evolve, with quality go getters keen jest.

© Prof Priyavrat Thareja, 2003

So true! As a customer I may require a throw-away, inexpensive widget that accomplishes the task desired and then can be disposed; or I may expect the everlasting, ultra expensive, three-handled, moss-covered family credunza that will meet my every need and last me a lifetime.

Quality Is a state of mind. It is treating others as we would like to be treated - in action. It is a lifestyle. But, it is also a measurable trait of a process or product, and it is this dichotomy that makes it so difficult to define.
Quality is like beauty, whose criteria is different for different persons. Are there some yardsticks for measuring beauty? Like there are for quality?

Can some one give reference to yardsticks for measuring quality?

Professor thareja has made a nice attempt to bring beauty into quality!
Quality is a state of mind is deiterated.
" perceive a thing, and trigger for quality is already is already pressed."

savda