has anyone heard anything regarding the use of octupus and turtle diagrams as an aid to conducting internal audits?

Hi Lissa

Try looking at this thread for starters. Also try a search of "cops" or "turtle" and there are quite a few threads/posts to choose from.

COPs (Customer Oriented Processes), Turtle Diagrams and an Octopus or Two (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6005)

BTW - Welcome to the Cove :bigwave:
Bill

has anyone heard anything regarding the use of octupus and turtle diagrams as an aid to conducting internal audits?
Lissa,
I tried to email you back but "you weren't receiving". So we'll have to continue here, for now. There really is a wealth of info at this thread for you to decide if it entails anything "new" for your needs. Basically the octopus and turtle diagrams are rehashes of tools that have been around for quite a while. The slight twist your auditor might throw at you is that your current flow diagrams, etc., may not show the interaction of your processes or may not "show" your customer focus clearly enough.

Hope this helps,
Bill

Thanks for helping, Bill!

As a belated note: I've seen a growing number of folks that use the process diagram as the basis for auditing. They either build their checklists off the diagram, or they use the diagram ILO a checklist. Either of which can make sense if done properly.

Dave,

What does ILO mean?

Thanks,
Doug

ILO = in lieu of?

As some posts remark, this stuff is old hat. Its not even animal magic. However, it is used in the Third Party Auditor Qualification Training for TS 16949:2002. A much better process auditing tool is available at ** DEAD LINK REMOVED ***
The Turtle is still a clause based auditing tool whereas Auditor Questions is based on process management principles.

ILO = in lieu of?

Sorry, I missed this. You are correct howste. I'm glad you answered it. I can't spell lieu, that's why I use ILO. :o

The Turtle is still a clause based auditing tool .

I would tend to disagree. My first experience with the Turtle was to look at processes to find sources of Process Variation (thanks to Crosby). It had nothing to do with auditing, and in fact, I knew nothing about ISO at the time (some still wonder). The Turtle diagram is based on the process. It shows process inputs, outputs and factors. There is nothing about the clauses in a Turtle Diagram. Unless of course, we are using the same label on two separate things. :confused:

There is nothing about the clauses in a Turtle Diagram. Unless of course, we are using the same label on two separate things. :confused:

I agree. The Turtle diagram can be used without reference to any standard but I have seen it misused by auditors. They go into a department, assume the customer is the department that receives the output and apply the what, who, how, and what criteria to the activities using the standard to identify the activities because some organizations have chosen the clause headings of ISO 9001 or ISO/TS 16949 as their processes. Its not an approach that gets challenged by the auditors.

While I have found some examples of a Turtle Diagram, I am having difficulty developing a diagram for "Training/Competency". Does anyone have an example of a turtle diagram for the Training/Competency element? :confused:

While I have found some examples of a Turtle Diagram, I am having difficulty developing a diagram for "Training/Competency". Does anyone have an example of a turtle diagram for the Training/Competency element? :confused:

Wecome to the Cove JStanforth.

Would you post an overview of your training/competency needs and wants?
I would be pleased to review your info for integration into a mapped format.
Wallace.

....some organizations have chosen the clause headings of ISO 9001 or ISO/TS 16949 as their processes. Its not an approach that gets challenged by the auditors....

In automotive land, I saw an auditor stop the Stage I TS16949 audit dead within the first 10 minutes.

The plant had just regurgiated the standard with "supplier" changed to "My Company Name" and used the clause numbering right out of the book.

He failed them for "failure to understand and apply the process approach". Perhaps there is hope!