hi there,
i know my question is a bit stupid. but i still need ur help out there.
my question is...
what are the 7 pre-requisite procedure for TS16949:2002?
For ur info our consultant had been terminated...please help

Procedure 1 --- Control of Document
Procedure 2 ---- Control of Records
Procedure 3 ---Internal Audit
Procedure 4 --- Control of Non Conforming Products
Procedure 5 --- Corrective Action
Procedure 6 ---- Preventive Action
Procedure 7 --- Training


Please note last has been added in TS2 and not mandatory in ISO 9001:2000

I would also point out that 4.2.1 d) requires you to have other documents the process needs. You may very well find out that you really NEED 10 procedures.

hi there,
i know my question is a bit stupid. but i still need ur help out there.
my question is...
what are the 7 pre-requisite procedure for TS16949:2002?
For ur info our consultant had been terminated...please help


Welcome to the Cove adzareena. I would like to point out to you that at the Cove there are no "stupid questions". That's why we get together here. Lots of us don't know all the answers and none of us are too big headed to admit it (well, with a couple of exceptions maybe). When we need an answer, we ask. Don't ever hesitate to ask when you need help.

Dave

I would also point out that 4.2.1 d) requires you to have other documents the process needs. You may very well find out that you really NEED 10 procedures.


thanks. but what do you mean by 10 procedures? is there any black and white proving that there are 10 pre-requisite procedure instead of 7 stated previously?

Welcome to the Cove adzareena. I would like to point out to you that at the Cove there are no "stupid questions". That's why we get together here. Lots of us don't know all the answers and none of us are too big headed to admit it (well, with a couple of exceptions maybe). When we need an answer, we ask. Don't ever hesitate to ask when you need help.

Dave

Thanks for the warm welcome Dave. Any how, i really feel great in this community.

I could see 10 procedures in the technical specification 16949 of ISO 9001:2000 easy.

Reason for that being 7 required by the standard, but as db stated " I would also point out that 4.2.1 d) requires you to have other documents the process needs. You may very well find out that you really NEED 10 procedures. "

Basically there's a lot to do in TS and a procedure makes some of those required activities much easier to accomplish.

What is your organization about? The way I went about planning ISO 9001 was sort of flow charting our various key processes. I found that the structure of ISO 9001 was created with a certain basic organization type in mind and we had to make the standard follow our processes, but it's all there! Everything in the book makes sense and has a place.

This is why I ask you about the nature of your organization.

(to Dave B and atetsade) I think what "adz3" is asking is what the other three "procedures" are in addition to the 7 "required". To be honest, I also don't see where 4.2.1.d is referring to a "procedure" - it simply says "documents" are needed to ensure the effective planning, operation, and control of operations. Various companies may accomplish this is various ways.

Also, the standard doesn't really say 7 procedures are required. It says there are 7 areas where procedures are required. For example (as shown in other threads), corrective and preventive actions may be handled on the same procedure (possibly the same with document and records control).

My company actually uses dozens of procedures (mostly in flowchart format), but others (perhaps small mom and pop shops) could get away with as few a five (if combined as above). It is not the number of procedures that count (no pun intended) but the effectiveness of the system.

Also, like Mr. Scott says, welcome to the cove adzareena03! :bigwave:

thanks. but what do you mean by 10 procedures? is there any black and white proving that there are 10 pre-requisite procedure instead of 7 stated previously?

I used 10 as a figure from the air. The number of necessary procedures will vary from company to company. There are some that can get away with just the 7 mandatory procedures. Others may 10, or 12 or 30. It all depends on what you need to have an effective system.

For example, there is no requirement in the standard for a documented procedure for management review. however, let's say that based on your circumstances, you decide that without a documented procedure, you will not be able to meet the requirements of 5.6. No procedure is required by the standard, but one is needed. The need is mandated by circumstances, not the standard.

Is that clearer?

adzareena03,
There are only seven (7) documented procedures required .. period. (See notes to 4.2 for clarification).
The reason being is that you cannot audit procedures based on the process audit criteria. The key words in TS2 is "process defintion", thereby eliminating the need for additional procedures. Even with the 7, the processes are still required to be defined.
The "NEED" may be for additional documents,i.e, work instructions, process definition, but not documented procedures.

IMO develop the seven, then define the balance of your processes in a format that is conducive to your organization.

ARRRRGGHHH!! I may have to buy the book "Don't Sweat The Little Things...", HOWEVER, There is NO REQUIREMENT, MANDATE, OR OTHERWISE that states you must have a MINIMUM of SEVEN PROCEDURES!! There is simply seven identified areas that require a procedure.

If I wrote ONE PROCEDURE, that included all of those requirements, it would satisfy the standard. The auditor asks, "Do you have a procedure for internal auditing?" "Yes, it is #P001" "Very good, how about your procedure for corrective actions?" "Yes, it is #P001".

Anyway, I shouldn't sweat the petty things, or pet the sweaty things, or something like that. Maybe a vacation is needed for ME! :rolleyes:

Good point Rob. Also - I'd hate to see db's main point get lost because of the misinterpretation that he said 10 procedures.

An example for Rob's point - We have 16 documented procedures. Corrective and Preventive Actions are covered in one procedure. However, I have broken down document control into three seperate procedures: Internal, External, and Engineering Drawings.

An example for db's point - We have a procedure for Contract Review. It is not required by the standard, but in our organization it is needed.

Bad news...

Rob, you do need a vacation [but your point is valid].


Cari, you are beginning to understand me.


Now, which news is worse ? :bonk:

ARRRRGGHHH!! I may have to buy the book "Don't Sweat The Little Things...", HOWEVER, There is NO REQUIREMENT, MANDATE, OR OTHERWISE that states you must have a MINIMUM of SEVEN PROCEDURES!! There is simply seven identified areas that require a procedure.

If I wrote ONE PROCEDURE, that included all of those requirements, it would satisfy the standard. The auditor asks, "Do you have a procedure for internal auditing?" "Yes, it is #P001" "Very good, how about your procedure for corrective actions?" "Yes, it is #P001".

Anyway, I shouldn't sweat the petty things, or pet the sweaty things, or something like that. Maybe a vacation is needed for ME! :rolleyes:

:biglaugh: This is beginning to get fun - I guess we could really keep poking and get Rob REALLY frustrated :bonk: but because it is near the holiday season we should let him off the hook.

Rob's point is well made. Nowhere does it say 7 procedures are required :agree: I think for the sake of the poor guys who are trying to figure out what they need to address in a procedure we should probably all agree that only 7 areas HAVE TO be addressed.

:truce:
The points made about how you can meet the requirement and the points about those 7 areas being a minimum are all valid. Some may be able to write a single procedure addressing all 7 areas and others may need to write 10 or even 20 or more procedures for their needs. Only 7 areas are REQUIRED, but you can write as many as you want.

Are we all on the same page now? :ko:

Dave

ARRRRGGHHH!! I may have to buy the book "Don't Sweat The Little Things...", HOWEVER, There is NO REQUIREMENT, MANDATE, OR OTHERWISE that states you must have a MINIMUM of SEVEN PROCEDURES!! There is simply seven identified areas that require a procedure.

If I wrote ONE PROCEDURE, that included all of those requirements, it would satisfy the standard. The auditor asks, "Do you have a procedure for internal auditing?" "Yes, it is #P001" "Very good, how about your procedure for corrective actions?" "Yes, it is #P001".

Anyway, I shouldn't sweat the petty things, or pet the sweaty things, or something like that. Maybe a vacation is needed for ME! :rolleyes:

Rob is correct and so is Dave. There are numerous approaches to the "HOW" of documenting your QMS for TS-2. But remember 2 things. 1. Define the sequence and interaction of your processes. 2. It has to work for you & your organization. Once you have the process mapped / flow charted to define the sequence and interaction you will see how the support processes affect the mfg. operations. When all is said and done the main purpose of the business is to make $$. :thedeal: Define it, Document it so it suits your operation. Practice it and Improve it. It all sounds so simple doesn't it? :eek:

hello there...

thanks a lot 4 the info...BTW, if I take the pre-requisite procedures as my company main procedure, can I just concentrate on them only?
please advise. thanks in advance....