As this is my first post, I hope this question has not been already asked.


I have seen a a few different formats for Turtles being used for a variety of different system models. Is there any specific training just for turtle development? Since this area is very important due to the fact that we are setting up our system with this, is a lead auditor course going to cover what I need to know to do this effectively?

What's the definition of a turtle model??
Wallace.

By 'model', I mean is there an accepted format or structure for these to be documented. I've seen turtles which have been documented a few different ways. Some are very structured and have a lot of information (referencing procedures, forms, personnel, etc.). I have also seen less structured (referencing departments, areas). I was wondering if there is a general format for turtles which is widely used, or if anyone has a very effective way of documenting these.

Attached is an image example.
Does this speak to your definition of a "Turtle Model"? :confused:
Wallace.

By 'model', I mean is there an accepted format or structure for these to be documented. I've seen turtles which have been documented a few different ways. Some are very structured and have a lot of information (referencing procedures, forms, personnel, etc.). I have also seen less structured (referencing departments, areas). I was wondering if there is a general format for turtles which is widely used, or if anyone has a very effective way of documenting these.

Here is an example of a Turtle diagram that shows the correlation of the sections / clauses of the TS specification. This is the format of turtle that was given as an example during the AIAG transition training for TS 16949. The section / clause numbers were tied together by an auditor who works with BSI, (not Randy :) ) and it was used as a tool to conduct internal audits. I found that by using it to train Internal Auditors they developed a better grasp of the system and how it functions, the interfaces / interactions of the different processes.

TQK,

We have had discussions on the topic in other forums and here is a link that gives some examples and explainations (I am still wanting more info on Octopus Modeling).

COPs (Customer Oriented Processes), Turtles and an Octopus or Two (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6005)

Doug

:)

Dear Sirs,

I´m a Engineer working in a Brazilian Automotive Supplier Factory.
Newly we are preparing us for a ISO TS 16949 certification assessment process, and we have been discussing hardly about quality audits issues.
We'd like to share with you one doubt and our considerations about it. It's about the topics 8.2.2.1 until 8.2.2.3 in the norm. We´d like to know your opinion about it.
Are we doing the right thing?

Thanks a lot,

José Victorino
Mechanical Engineer

1 - We know that in ISO TS 2 there are three kinds of audit events: System Audit , Manufactoring Process Audit and Product Audit. The great issue is:
Which cases We have to use each one?

Now, we are understanding this way:

System audit - It´s used for verifying compliance with the norm, customer´s specific requirements and internal requirements. In this case we have to verify the documentation and system structure against the norm.
We use the turtles, norms, internal and external documents.
It´s not necessary to verify all processes at the same time, but we need to verify all the requirements.

Manufactoring Process Audit - in this case we are considering that we have to verify the actual parameters and targets related only with the performance of each fase of manufactoring process (capability, productivity, maintenance, cost). Here we are not verifying the enterely process at the same time, but choosing some fases of manufactoring process during the year.


Product Audit - in this case we are verifying just customer specific requirements like dimensions, functionability, packaging and labeling.

As this is my first post, I hope this question has not been already asked.


I have seen a a few different formats for Turtles being used for a variety of different system models. Is there any specific training just for turtle development? Since this area is very important due to the fact that we are setting up our system with this, is a lead auditor course going to cover what I need to know to do this effectively?

First of all, Welcome to the Cove!!! :bigwave:

A lead auditor course might show you how to audit the process description, but will probably not do an adequate job in showing you how to develop your turtle diagram. Check out Doug P's post and read theat thread. I included a PowerPoint presentation on the types of process maps.

As this is my first post, I hope this question has not been already asked.


I have seen a a few different formats for Turtles being used for a variety of different system models. Is there any specific training just for turtle development? Since this area is very important due to the fact that we are setting up our system with this, is a lead auditor course going to cover what I need to know to do this effectively?

First of all, Welcome to the Cove!!! :bigwave:

A lead auditor course might show you how to audit the process description, but will probably not do an adequate job in showing you how to develop your turtle diagram. Check out Doug P's post and read theat thread. I included a PowerPoint presentation on the types of process maps.

The important thing to remember is that there is no Prescribed method of performing a process map. The reason you see different types is undoubtedly because the different companies have decided they need a certain level of detail. How much detail is strictly up to you.

Hope that helps.


added -- I don't know what I did to cause this double post, but I know it happened as I was typing.

First of all, Welcome to the Cove!!! :bigwave:

A lead auditor course might show you how to audit the process description, but will probably not do an adequate job in showing you how to develop your turtle diagram. Check out Doug P's post and read theat thread. I included a PowerPoint presentation on the types of process maps.

The important thing to remember is that there is no Prescribed method of performing a process map. The reason you see different types is undoubtedly because the different companies have decided they need a certain level of detail. How much detail is strictly up to you.

Hope that helps.


added -- I don't know what I did to cause this double post, but I know it happened as I was typing.

:rolleyes: It happens to me from time to time as well. I call it "Fat Finger" :vfunny:

But the important thing here is that db is correct in that there is no prescribed method by which one has to do them. Turtles, Octopus diagrams, & COPS are all tools for you to use in looking at your processes to assist you in developing the QMS. FWIW - I believe that these things were developed by the people @ AIAG & are most useful for training purposes or as a guide to your Internal Auditors to use in their audits. One company I know of used the turtles from the Internal Audits to show their assessor and the guy loved it. :ko:
IMO a Lead Auditor course benefits you by keeping your focus in development of the system at approximately the same view as that of the guys who will be evaluating it for compliance / certification.

FWIW,
-the octupus diagram was developed by Ford. I forgot the originators name. He was the Ford rep at the TS2 rollout sessions.
-he original "turtle' was developed by P. Crosby,
-flow charts were developed as a result of the computer industry sometime in the 60's. (Juran)

Sam, Thanks for correctly attributing the turtle to P. Crosby. The FORD guy who developed the Octopus diagram, would that be Russ Hopkins?

Yes. During the first rollout the question was asked, "Is there a special software program developed to implement this diagram"? The answer "no". To be used only as a tool by the organization and will not be auditable.

I Need Some Examples Of Turle Diagram

Welcome to the Cove - try using a search to find what you're looking for. There are many threads about turtles and many examples for you to view.

Andy

Here is an example of what we are using. We use what we call a Process Profile. I have attached it.

Finally... an enlightened perspective on Turtle Diagrams (IMHO)...this article appeared in a January 2007 Newsletter from Quality Digest's Quality Insider (http://qualitydigest.com/IQedit/QDarticle_text.lasso?articleid=11870). Of course this is just one consultant's opinion, but he makes several very good points. I have long subscribed to the thinking that Turtle Diagrams should be viewed as "a rough-draft reference" to help you create your process maps. They help to keep you focused, so that you make sure you answer each question associated with each "turtle appendage" as you build your process (which is really a whole caravan of turtles in a defined sequence). Then throw them away!!! They represent your rough draft - a working tool...they're not an Operating System Document...You can't teach from them, and and a person could never learn a process, much less implement it, using a turtle diagram - and your internal auditors can't audit from them...unless they're mind readers, and know all your company processes by heart... They have no other meaningful purpose...and they're no substitue for full-blown process maps. (and they're not mandatory!!).

This article is sure to stir the "Turtle" Soup pot...ENJOY!!! (Sorry the illustrations didn't copy...but they were just the classic turtle models which are posted in many places on the Cove)

Patricia Ravanello

Auditors, Turtle Diagrams and Waste Less is more

by Mike Micklewright

In the past several months, registrar auditors strongly recommended to three former or current clients that they develop and install turtle diagrams for each of their processes. Two auditors from one registrar actually taught a former client how to develop a turtle diagram during a surveillance audit.

In the stand-up quality comedy routine that I perform for ASQ’s section meetings, conferences and corporate events, I reveal my sarcastic list of “seven basic habits of highly effective registrar auditors.” Habit no.2 is, “Inform the auditee that you aren’t allowed to give advice, and then give advice.” I then reveal a double-billed cap, and say that, in the spirit of ISO 9001 clause 7.5.3, “Identification and traceability,” registrar auditors should be required to identify their service at the time of provision.

So, when auditors are auditing, they should show the “auditor” side of the cap. As soon as they start giving advice, they should flip the cap around and show the word “consultant.” Registrar auditors must not give advice, because by doing so, they lose their objectivity.

What is a turtle diagram?
Two registrar auditors suggested the turtle diagram format below. The typical turtle diagram has inputs and outputs surrounding the process in question. How does this diagram do what the procedure or agenda forms don’t? Such diagrams defeat their own purpose—they aren’t written in process format. For example, how do the three “support processes” and the two “linkages” fit in, and when do they fit in? Furthermore, the document is written in batch form rather than process flow.

Two registrar auditors developed this turtle diagram during a surveillance audit for their clients. It is easy to see how it would be helpful for the auditor and his report, but it isn’t easy to see how this adds value to the company’s quality system.

Read more (http://qualitydigest.com/IQedit/QDarticle_text.lasso?articleid=11870)...

The above-posted article is less impactful without the graphics, so I've created and attached a PDF file of the article which includes all the illustrations...Hope that helps!

Patricia Ravanello

Patricia -thanks so much for posting that excellent article here. Mr. Micklewright knows his stuff, that's for sure!

Its amazing how these infernal diagrams have become almost mythical in their use and all to satisfy an external auditor - how many times has that been stated(particularly in posts here).... "I asked my auditor if it's alright!"

I, for one, which all turtles would (quickly) crawl into the sea to be replaced by common sense. It was simply a way to get 'element' auditors to think (and hopefully) audit by process. Not as a means to document the system.

I will sleep better tonight.........:lmao:

Andy

Patricia -thanks so much for posting that excellent article here. Mr. Micklewright knows his stuff, that's for sure!

Its amazing how these infernal diagrams have become almost mythical in their use and all to satisfy an external auditor - how many times has that been stated(particulalry in posts here).... "I asked my auditor if it's alright!"

I, for one, which all turtles would (quickly) crawl into the sea to be replaced by common sense. It was simply a way to get 'element' auditors to think (and hopefully) audit by process. Not as a means to document the system.

I will sleep better tonight.........:lmao:

Andy

As most users of the Turtles are transitioning from some form of Quality System scheme to the Process Approach of ISO 9001 / TS 16949 they tend to migrate toward what has been working for others who have made the conversion previously. That said I found the Turtle diagrams to be a good tool from which to do just as you have suggested - Train "ELEMENT" Auditors to apply the Process Approach. As these auditors become more experienced at following the Process there is less and less need of the Turtles as a crutch. :yes:

Hi,

Just another example of Process mapping... we are not TS (only ISO 9001) but I got some ideas from other Turtle Diagrams to make our own.

I welcome any comments on the Map and hope it can be useful to someone.

:)

A sample of one of our current Turtle/Process Map overviews.

My MS Word must be faulty cannot open your attachment above. :)

My MS Word must be faulty cannot open your attachment above. :)

it worked fine for me:tg:

My MS Word must be faulty cannot open your attachment above. :)

My MS Office Word could not open the attachment either.

Doug

Who´s attachment are you guys not being able to open since there are various attachments above...

Who´s attachment are you guys not being able to open since there are various attachments above...

Good Question, I wondered that after I responded. I thought Stephen was referring to Shaun Daly's BSM-Pl-Business Management ISS 4.doc.

Doug

Shaun´s opened fine for me... I´m using MS WORD 2000