An example: When I first discovered the Cove, I searched for why everyone used the terms Level/Tier 1, 2, 3 for documents.
. . .
I don't want to start it up again, PLEASE!!! But, we can't allow ourselves to be intimidated by those that profess to have the answers unless they have the proof. To me, it was common sense to do the search before posting.
. . .
I guess what bothers me the most is someone thinking they are the first person to ask a question, as if only they thought of it, without trying to do the search first. :pAre you telling us, Energy, you really do NOT want more input about nomenclature of "tiers" and "levels"?

How will all we "self-coronated Kings and Queens of Quality" be able to exist without willing acolytes gratefully gobbling our Pearls of Wisdom?

Please, O Please, Energy. Ask some questions and repeat loudly, "I believe in Quality Mavens! I believe in Quality Mavens!" so we, too, like Tinker Bell, can survive.

(Now that I've written this - I originally intended it to be humorously sarcastic, but maybe it's too much like "kidding on the square"! I really DO like to answer questions when I can.)

Please, O Please, Energy. Ask some questions and repeat loudly, "I believe in Quality Mavens! I believe in Quality Mavens!" so we, too, like Tinker Bell, can survive.

(Now that I've written this - I originally intended it to be humorously sarcastic, but maybe it's too much like "kidding on the square"! I really DO like to answer questions when I can.)
:topic:
Okay Wes,
Let's hear it. But, please, start a new thread under control of documents or some other insignificant area. Maybe Miscellaneous. After all, you were not here, then, to bestow your pearls of wisdom on us novices. Maybe you can change my mind. :bonk: I remember being completely sated. :vfunny: Go for it! :agree:
Document Description: Level and Tier (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=1670)

But, we can't allow ourselves to be intimidated by those that profess to have the answers unless they have the proof.

This is along the lines of my original post. The key word is "intimidated". In many cases, newbees and lurkers questions are are met with an apparent attitude like they were asking "stupid" questions (of course there are those of us - like me- that are skilled at asking stupid questions).

In many cases, newbees and lurkers questions are are met with an apparent attitude like they were asking "stupid" questions (of course there are those of us - like me- that are skilled at asking stupid questions).

What do you mean "stupid questions"? :biglaugh:



I could not resist that one!!! :biglaugh:

This is along the lines of my original post. The key word is "intimidated". In many cases, newbees and lurkers questions are met with an apparent attitude like they were asking "stupid" questions (of course there are those of us - like me- that are skilled at asking stupid questions).

I disagree. An apparent attitude in whose eyes? Many cases? Where? A little while ago, before the purge, there was some arrogance in some posts. But that came from preaching on high and was not intentionally directed at newbees or lurkers. It was directed at everyone. :vfunny: Intimidation is only in the mind of the easily intimidated. Some people are too frightened to go outside. :truce:

What do you mean "stupid questions"?

See above quote :vfunny:

Yeah, I'm easily intimidated ;)

I split this off from the 'details - template' thread because it sorta took us off topic.

Personally, I think most of us answer questions pretty well. It is true we went through a lot of 'idocy' before the last 'purge', but I think we've come out of it better than we were. There is a lot less "This is the way and it's the only way" - which I was as guilty of as many others were.

If you 'old' folks remember, we scared several people away through the bickering that erupted from time to time.

I think the attitude of the users and visitors today is much different, and much better, than it has been since late 1999 or 2000. It's calmer, less confrontational, more disciplined (if you will).

We've practically eliminated politics and offensive posts, even in the coffee break forum. I think the forums needed that shakeup.

Gosh Marc, It almost sounds as though the Cove Forums have become "Politically Correct". :D But I would also like to add, as one of those on again off again lurkers, that this place & / or this profession is not for the timid. If you have thin skin you are going to have problems. :bigwave:

Gosh Marc, It almost sounds as though the Cove Forums have become "Politically Correct". :D But I would also like to add, as one of those on again off again lurkers, that this place & / or this profession is not for the timid. If you have thin skin you are going to have problems. :bigwave:

Ok, but I've got a comment about that. I was just pondering the value of participating here; and rudeness (in my opinion) detracts greatly the pleasure and usefulness of this whole forum.

you can call a hollow argument, or a misinformed decision misinformed. But people are not to be attacked. we go here in part to contribute in a professional level, and we need to be respected as professionals.

One of the internets great downfalls, is that you are too insulated from the community that you are speaking to. I might never personally meet Steve prevette, wes brucy, Bill pflanz, Mike S, etc (Honest I'd mention you all, if I could :lol: ). But as I write I am speaking to you. My own behavior should reflect that my audience has both dedicated seekers of the truth and masters of great knowledge, that might be able to build upon your own understanding. and this basic humility and respect should stick with you whether you've written doctrinal dissertations of statistical distributions or you just struggle to spell deming.

I strongly believe there are no such things as stupid questions, but sometimes there are complex answers. And us newby's deserve respect as we seek answers...

Gosh Marc, It almost sounds as though the Cove Forums have become "Politically Correct". :D But I would also like to add, as one of those on again off again lurkers, that this place & / or this profession is not for the timid. If you have thin skin you are going to have problems. :bigwave:
I think this was more true in the past. Since December I've been very happy about the direction of these forums. I will say one thing - The forums have been online for about 7 years in one software or another - vBulletin coming online in August 2001 {and incorporating posts from UltimateBB going back to about June 1998} if I remember correctly - and it's still here.

The forums are as much a 'Chit Chat' place for a lot of people as a source of information - and that does make a difference to many people. It is a place where people who like this medium can interact.

It is not the ASQ forums and neither will ever supplant the other because the whole idea here is different. This is a place where people are more open and that's not just a consequence of being open to the public. People can and do say things here they could not say on the ASQ forums, and it's a different mindset here.

The ASQ forums are fine for many people. Others like it here. But it's not competition - it's just different here than it is there.

As for these forums becoming 'politically correct', I tend to just look at it as more focused. There was profanity we didn't need, there have been 'attitudes' (including mine), and other things which diluted the usefullness and intent of the forums. Things change as time goes on. The internet as a whole is vastly different than it was when I started this site in January 1996.

Anyone remember the name of the forum which was online for years but finally spiraled out of control (it was not moderated)? I forget what the name was but for a while this forum was following the same path, but more slowly.

Anyone remember the name of the forum which was online for years but finally spiraled out of control (it was not moderated)? I forget what the name was but for a while this forum was following the same path, but more slowly.
Can't remember the name, but I know the one you are talking about. Some jerk got on the board and had NOTHING nice to say to anyone our about anything. That's when I found the Cove....and never went back!

Carol

One of the internets great downfalls, is that you are too insulated from the community that you are speaking to. I might never personally meet Steve prevette, wes brucy, Bill pflanz, Mike S, etc (Honest I'd mention you all, if I could :lol: ). But as I write I am speaking to you. My own behavior should reflect that my audience has both dedicated seekers of the truth and masters of great knowledge, that might be able to build upon your own understanding. and this basic humility and respect should stick with you whether you've written doctrinal dissertations of statistical distributions or you just struggle to spell deming.



Very well said.

As one of those who was around, and actively participated in, the deadly spiral, I have to say that the Cove now does a much better job of fulfilling what I believe was Marc's intention - its mission, if you will. Marc did a very good job of pulling us out of a flat spin.

The tone is different, and much more effective. It was hard to concentrate on Quality after leaving the "Contemplating... " thread for instance. (Don't look for it - it has been, thankfully purged. If you don't remember it, all the better. Not that what we discussed wasn't important, just not important to quality).

Now, with some of the "newbies" (if you want to call experts that) we have indeed risen to a higher intellectual level.

Stupid questions? I'll try not to ask any. Stupid comments? Same. But, the beauty of the Cove is that it is casual enough where we can run something out for all our Q friends to see, and get good advice before we do something at the office that allows our coworkers to figure out the Quality King has on no clothes.

And that alone is worth much more than the price of admission.

:D
As a very recent newcomer to the cove I find it funny that you have vernacular that appear to describe different levels of expertise.

Anyone new to Quality and especially ISO requirements relish the chance to ask questions nobody in their organization can provide answers for.

The people who have helped me here with what I also thought might be foolish or amateur questions have also encouraged me to ask questions in the forum and not as many as private messages for the sake of helping other "newbies".
Otherwise where are the level 3 documents telling you where to find specific information in the cove.

I thank all of you for that and anyone else can get over themselves. :bonk:


New Auditor on the block

:D
As a very recent newcomer to the cove I find it funny that you have vernacular that appear to describe different levels of expertise.

Anyone new to Quality and especially ISO requirements relish the chance to ask questions nobody in their organization can provide answers for.

The people who have helped me here with what I also thought might be foolish or amateur questions have also encouraged me to ask questions in the forum and not as many as private messages for the sake of helping other "newbies".
Otherwise where are the level 3 documents telling you where to find specific information in the cove.

I thank all of you for that and anyone else can get over themselves. :bonk:


New Auditor on the blockIn my own mind (often a scary place), I have two working definitions for "newbies"

people new to the Cove, who are still working their way through navigation and protocol in a feature-rich environment, regardless of their Quality "credentials"
people who are new to "Standardized" Quality, who are struggling with straight definitions and nuances of Quality Standards and government Regulations, together with "Customer Requirements" from super trans-national customers.
The newbies are only a small part of the Cove universe. No matter how experienced and savvy we may be, we all run into a "poser" from time to time. Andrew Carnegie had a concept called the "Group Mind" in which the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. The Cove is a Group Mind and those who have the courage to overcome shyness and potential for embarrassment can ask those kind of questions here they are leery of posing at work. (Often, there is no one at work to ask!)

Another small segment of the Cove universe are those Mentors who give freely of the experience and knowledge they have gained over years. In some small way, it is "payback" for the kindness of others who helped them survive to gain the knowledge and experience they now share.

Finally, it is nice to have a place which is the cyber equivalent of "Cheers" where everyone knows your name.

(What was the character name of Coach, anyway?)

So - Should we rename the Coffee Break forum Cheers? If you've looked at the most 'popular' forum (do the popup for an extended listing) in the statistics.... The Coffee Break forum is #2.

Andrew Carnegie had a concept called the "Group Mind" in which the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. The Cove is a Group Mind and those who have the courage to overcome shyness and potential for embarrassment can ask those kind of questions here they are leery of posing at work. (Often, there is no one at work to ask!)

The "older" quality professionals must have heavily relied on books, articles and seminars to learn or the tried and true method - Screw it up once and learn from it. Discussion boards can be helpful, controversial, irrelevant, rude and a number of other things but they do provide another source of information that can be used or discarded. The Cove may not always be valuable but you cannot deny that it is cheap.

Another small segment of the Cove universe are those Mentors who give freely of the experience and knowledge they have gained over years. In some small way, it is "payback" for the kindness of others who helped them survive to gain the knowledge and experience they now share.

I hope the old axiom, Those who can do, those who can't teach, doesn't apply to the mentors. :bonk:

Finally, it is nice to have a place which is the cyber equivalent of "Cheers" where everyone knows your name.

(What was the character name of Coach, anyway?)

Ernie Pantusso - I cheated and looked it up.

Bill Pflanz

I hope I can be backed up in saying that I'm not much different in person than I am here. I come across as being pretty opinionated and direct and sometimes it may be misunderstood. I try not to insult (unless it's called for, which it seldom is) and I can't be insulted (thick skin and skull).

Some of the great stuff that happens here in the Cove isn't always happening in the forums. I recently had a major job problem that Wes Bucey very kindly helped me with using the private message route. His advice was right on the mark, and I have successfully worked through the issue. I've privately thanked Wes, but I think the moment has come to publicly thank him too. :applause:

I've benefited from the public forums for years, but the supportive community here was a surprise benefit.

Hello, everyone. As you all know a brief spate of eruptions have arisen over the last week or so. I'm going to speak frankly so for those offended, I'm sorry but it's what I feel.

The forum is in very good shape, especially considering its evolution over the years. But - We can do better. I ask that we all remember we're not an 'elite' group (myself included), and that MOST people who end up here are looking for help. Most are not experts. Most are not experienced. Many do not even know the basics.

My point is we were all in their place at one time or another. I think what really gets to some of us is that someone asks a question that has been answered several (or many) times already. Or when someone asks a basic question that we *assume* they should know or could find the answer to with a modicum of searching and self-learning. We tend to get upset when someone 'asks' to be 'spoon fed'. Yet, we all know this is *standard* in all public forums, or at least every forum I have ever visited. I've been guilty of the same 'transgressions' myself. There should not be an expectation that these aspects of a public forum will go away.

I would like to ask everyone to please keep in mind that the forum is a place for people to help others. If you (meaning anyone) get upset or otherwise frustrated because people ask what you may consider a stupid or 'easy' question, I ask you to refrain from replying in the thread. A while back when I discussed these aspects one person wrote "What, the Cove is becoming politically correct?" Folks, it has nothing to do with being politically correct. It has to do with being civil and sensitive to others. If you want to equate 'political correctness' with civility and sensitivity, that's your choice. Either way, if you're not interested in helping out please don't post.

I also want to remind everyone this is a public forum where personal attacks are not appropriate. If your emotions are running away with you, I ask you to step back for a minute and think. Is it really worth it to start, or continue, a personal fight online in a public forum? Is that really showing your best face to the world?

I hope everyone will take a minute or two and think about this forum and what you post. If you want the Cove to be here next year and the year after, it requires that we all take posts less personally and to decide why you stop by here as you peruse the internet.

Marc, As one of the newer members of the Cove, I can say I feel very comfortable posting here. I belong to some fishing and Labrador Retriever forums where they will hand you your head if you make a statement they disagree with. I feel I have learned more in the last couple of months reading this forum than I have in the last two years. I am the top dog in my company as far as quality management, so I learn very little at work. There is no one there to teach me. A couple of people have answered my queries in a less than positive way, but it has made me think before I post. I know I will still post "dumb" questions from time to time, but I feel that the people here are friends who want to help and will keep me from making stupid mistakes.

Doug

I do, and will always think, that people are basically good at nature. I believe that most of the people posting here on the board are good people, and are not trying to be mean, discourteous, etc. Discussion boards are a very unique form of communication. It is all written, and you can have instant responses.

If you were to look here in America, in general the studies suggest non-verbal communication comprises about 70-90% of our communication. This is us "reading" each other's body language to determine if they are lying, are they angry, are they sincere, etc. Also, you can "read" people to see if you may have unintentionally made them angry, hurt their feelings, if they seem confused, etc.

Again, we can't see each other's sincerity, or humor in the face, or the general disposition of being nice people. We can only infer from what we read. So what we type may need to be a little different than what we would say. That's not that you can't express your feelings, or disagree with something. Just remember we don't have that essential component of communication, the one that helps us set the context.

The Cove is the best, and it will stay the best by everyone submitting their thoughts, having fun, and most of all, maintaining high professional standards.

I would like to ask everyone to please keep in mind that the forum is a place for people to help others. If you (meaning anyone) get upset or otherwise frustrated because people ask what you may consider a stupid or 'easy' question, I ask you to refrain from replying in the thread. A while back when I discussed these aspects one person wrote "What, the Cove is becoming politically correct?" Folks, it has nothing to do with being politically correct. It has to do with being civil and sensitive to others. If you want to equate 'political correctness' with civility and sensitivity, that's your choice. Either way, if you're not interested in helping out please don't post.


Well said, Marc. I'm sure some of the 'been around a long time' people find it irritating at times to find questions posted from brand new people with a problem that is, to them, also brand new. But a curt 'why don't you search!' snappish reply isn't either civil or friendly. I'm not a member of longstanding (only found the Cove last year). I'm not new to quality, but was new to the forum. And certainly found that some of the extremely curt or less than civil responses (like: you should have searched! we've talked about that!) took me back.

An 'oh, we've already discussed that' isn't particularly helpful. I liken it to an immediate rejection of someone attempting to join or start a conversation. If every time someone does that they are instantly met with a 'we've already said and discussed everything on that particular topic', then it surely do be a conversation stopper!

Apart from anything else, often it's not true. It may have been discussed quite a while ago, sure - but it might have been with a previous version of the Standard, or even very early on when the 2000 version of ISO 9001, for example, was often very poorly understood. And don't people want to generate new conversations, new topics, new things to consider, new points of view? I know I do, and have very much enjoyed my almost all my interactions here, whether I agree with the other or not. Not being welcoming new people is generally a sign of an unhealthy organisation, and often a precursor to its slow/fast demise.

It's a fine balance, trying to cater for longer term, mid and newbies. But I think Marc's request that if you think it's too easy or too basic, then don't post is a very good rule. Depends, really, on whether Covers want to be inclusive or exclusive. I prefer the former.

I admit, that I at times have used replies like "have you searched?" or "have you read the similar threads listed below". I have never meant to be rude or inpolite, but sometimes the question posted is very vague, and in order to ask a question that someone can answer then a little bit of research goes a long way.

I don't want to be rude, but I do want to be able to answer to the best of my ability, and a question that goes like "What is ISO?" is just terribly hard to reply to, especially if, like me, you are at work when you are visiting the Cove. Answering the above question would probably take days or weeks and I am not being paid by my employer to do so. If, however, the question is more like: "What is the difference between ISO 13485 and ISO 9001" then it is easier for me to provide the correct (or at least more meaningful) answer in the timeframe that I can allocate to the Cove :) .

In general I do feel that people are made to feel welcome here, but we do get the odd one in: Just registered, never posted before and either asking a very vague question or asking for copyrighted material or other peoples checklists etc. I can understand why someone might not feel that these "odd ones" are actually here to learn, but more likely are here to cut corners in their work. I don't believe that you learn anything by cutting corners. I have on occasion asked for examples of other peoples work, but that has been to be inspired not to merely copy it and use it in my work or present it as my own.

I visit the Cove fairly often, and I've got a pretty clear picture of who is here to participate in the learning process and who is not (that is in my timezone). I am sure that the same goes for our regular participants from the States, China, India etc. I see them join, I see them browse, and I see them asking relevant questions after a while. I see them come back and I see them replying to other peoples questions. In short, I see them on the same learning curve as me. I see them, I respond to them and I do not compare them to the "odd ones".

All of these ramblings are not a defense of battering newbies. I will not defend battering, but then in the short period of time that I have been here, I have not seen any battering. I think that this issue arises at least partly due to linguistic difficulties. Some of our posters have a very high level of written English and some them only have a basic level. Some write very elaborate answers and others only the bare minimum. And the rest of us fall somewhere in the middle. When our comprehension and use of our mutual language of choice is very varied then it will create tension. :bigwave:

An 'oh, we've already discussed that' isn't particularly helpful. That is quite true, but fortunately there is a good way to get around that problem: Provide a link... Those of us who have been around for a while will often be able to track down those previous discussions (Besides, if we cannot find them, we certainly cannot expect newbies to dig them up.).Apart from anything else, often it's not true. It may have been discussed quite a while ago, sure - but it might have been with a previous version of the Standard, or even very early on when the 2000 version of ISO 9001, for example, was often very poorly understood. Oh, so true... the world around us changes and so do we. We'd better....And don't people want to generate new conversations, new topics, new things to consider, new points of view? But of course we do. If we continue using an old thread or create a new one is of little consequence as long as the all important conversation continues.

I do want to be able to answer to the best of my ability I know you do, and of course there is no harm in asking for additional data, or as we often do, ask people to be more specific when they post.

I do, and will always think, that people are basically good at nature.I agree. Life gets so much easier to cope with if you have that outlook. :agree1:I believe that most of the people posting here on the board are good people, and are not trying to be mean, discourteous, etc. Discussion boards are a very unique form of communication. It is all written, and you can have instant responses.In short, as usual, it is to a large degree down to communication, something we all know to be pretty hard sometimes.

The Cove is the best, and it will stay the best by everyone submitting their thoughts, having fun, and most of all, maintaining high professional standards.Yes, the Cove is second to none.

Marc, As one of the newer members of the Cove, I can say I feel very comfortable posting here. I belong to some fishing and Labrador Retriever forums where they will hand you your head if you make a statement they disagree with. I too, visit other forums both job related like this one, and other kinds. Some of them are like minefields: One false move and you get taken apart. One tends not to stay with such places for very long...:notme:

I post. I know I will still post "dumb" questions from time to time, but I feel that the people here are friends who want to help and will keep me from making stupid mistakes.Well said. I for one have made my share of mistakes... but I'd like to think that I keep learning from them :D

/Claes

Great post Gerts & Claes - I agree with all your excellent points.

Difficult to answer a vague, ill-defined question like 'What is ISO 9001?' Just about impossible, I'd say.

As a consultant, sometimes I get people calling me up and asking that question or a variation like (how do we get it? and 'can we get it by next week, as we've got a tender to respond to by then)! Even with all the info I publish on my business website to answer the most common questions, there will be occasionally people who perhaps are too lazy (or under too much work pressure) to bother, and want to be spoon fed.

I think the Cove does a marvellous job.

I decided to 'bump' this old thread to remind everyone that the Elsmar Cove forums are a world-wide, totally open public forum. We all have personalities and, especially in an internet text forum like this, sometimes personalities conflict. Please - If you have a personality conflict with someone, remember you can put the person on your 'Ignore' (http://elsmar.com/Forums/profile.php?do=editlist) list. That way, if someone's posts irritate you (for example) you will not even see that person's posts. It will also block them from emailing you and from PMing you.

With respect to responding to questions and/or participating in discussion threads, whether replying to 'newbies', or 'regulars' for that matter, I want to take a minute and remind everyone that what happens here the world sees.

I was in Boston for 3 days this last week for some training. I was speaking with someone and the web site came up. The person said they really enjoyed it, but that he didn't visit too much because often there was a lot of 'sniping' in many discussion threads, by both Moderators and some 'regulars'. This person said that really 'turned him off'. I was disheartened and disappointed. This has come up in the past a number of times. I have gotten emails from people in the past. A few went so far as to asking me to remove their user record and all posts they had made. While that has only happened maybe 6 to 8 times over the last 5 years, and has not happened in the last year, it obviously is still an issue as evidenced by this person telling me about his being 'turned off' by these types of posts.

I recount this because I want to restate that all of us, myself included, have to be very careful in our posts, that we respect others in our posts and that we do not start, or reply 'in kind' to (we don't need 'One Up Manship'...), 'darts' (aka 'sniping', etc.). If you see this type of situation come up, PLEASE either use the http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/buttons/report.gif Report This Post button in the post 'header' OR, if you only want me to know you are reporting the post, please PM me (http://elsmar.com/Forums/private.php). I assure you I will keep your PM to me confidential, and I PROMISE you I will discuss the issues with the moderators, or, if your complaint has to do with a moderator, I will discuss it with the Elsmar Cove Board of Directors. Your complaint will not be dismissed without consideration. I will follow up with the initiator of all complaints so the person reporting the incident is informed of the resolution.

Please remember - The WORLD is watching what we write here. What you write reflects upon you very much. You like to joke around from time to time, and so do I. The intent is not to detract from the personal contact aspects of the Elsmar Cove forum community. Rather, it is a reminder that what you post is being watched by the world. For your own sake, Please - Be courteous to one another. What you post reflects upon your image and reputation, as well as on the image of the Elsmar Cove forums (which I do take very personally).

'Plays Well With Others' is important here.

Your comments in this thread are welcome, and your opinions and comments will be appreciated. It is my personal goal to make the Elsmar Cove forums a place people like to visit without reservation. This site has been online for over 12 years now. We've out lived just about every quality and business standards discussion forum on the internet. If we continue to improve, we may be here 12 more years! To continue to improve, we need YOUR comments about this and other aspects of the Elsmar Cove forum.

My Thanks!

Not that Marc needs any follow-up posts at all, but a thought or two comes to mind.


I recount this because I want to restate that all of us, myself included, have to be very careful in our posts, that we respect others in our posts and that we do not start, or reply to, 'darts' (aka 'sniping', etc.). If you see this type of situation come up, PLEASE either use the http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/buttons/report.gif Report This Post button in the post 'header' OR, if you only want me to know you are reporting the post, please PM me (http://elsmar.com/Forums/private.php). I assure you I will keep your PM to me confidential, and I PROMISE you I will discuss the issues with the moderators, or, if your complaint has to do with a moderator, I will discuss it with the Elsmar Cove Board of Directors. Your complaint will not be dismissed without consideration. I will follow up with the initiator of all complaints so the person reporting the incident is informed of the resolution.



If you look over the past year or so, there have been a lot of moderators added, in addition to the ones already handling that role. All of the moderators, young and old, are here to help. Just so you know... when you report a post, all moderators know about the reported post. Saying, we take your concerns very seriously, and they are always discussed.

Also, say something happens, and you want to communicate with someone. You think it needs to go above a moderator, but.. for whatever reason you don't want to bother Marc (not sure why), then contact one of his administrators. I promise you they will take your concern seriously. His administrators are Howard A., Claes G., Atul K., and Kevin M. If nothing else, those folks deserve high kudos for their work and tenure here. Thank you guys for your dedication, and motivating Marc through the years.

I was in Boston for 3 days this last week for some training. I was speaking with someone and the web site came up. The person said they really enjoyed it, but that he didn't visit too much because often there was a lot of 'sniping' in many discussion threads, by both Moderators and some 'regulars'. This person said that really 'turned him off'. I was disheartened and disappointed. This has come up in the past a number of times. I have gotten emails from people in the past. A few went so far as to asking me to remove their user record and all posts they had made. While that has only happened maybe 6 to 8 times over the last 5 years, and has not happened in the last year, it obviously is still an issue as evidenced by this person telling me about his being 'turned off' by these types of posts.



I think this one is hard for all of us, me included. Folks, I don't care where you are in the world, a significant amount of communication is lost through just writing alone. Please be patient, and give people the benefit of the doubt.

If you think someone is missing your point, PM them to straighten it up. So many times we just need to communicate better.

Please, try not to be too sensitive. But by all means, if something bothers you, report it; tell a moderator, admin, Marc. Please don't go away mad, like no one cares. Please don't feel this way (from another board; totally unrelated to this one):


Hello everyone, this is going to be my first and last post on these forums. I just joined and was very displeased at the way that this is run, not the community itself, but at the controllers of the site. I tried putting in a profile picture and it was removed because it wasn't a picture of me. Every other forum site allows pictures of anything (obviously not obsene stuff or things like that), but I put in an (edit) logo, which is my logo on most other forums I'm a part of. However, it got removed because it wasn't a picture of me. What a stupid rule. I can't get over the fact that there are no useful forums out there. Alpha (edit) forums are useless because the community is overall a useless one. Beta (edit) forums are so hopeless and lose accounts. And then here the rules are so ridiculous... the next time I have a computer problem I'd rather smash it with a hammer than go back here.

I'd like you all to know that I think these forums are poorly run and that those who run them are totally illogical. What harm would it be if I had an (edit) logo instead of my picture? Who is it hurting? Just your ridiculous rules.


Aside from some nasty replies (again, it's not the Cove) many senior members were very upset about the complaint. They would have helped him fix the problem, if they had just been contacted.

Thank you for the mention, Marc. Let's work together and make those stories a thing of the past.



Your comments in this thread are welcome, and your opinions and comments will be appreciated. It is my personal goal to make the Elsmar Cove forums a place people like to visit without reservation. This site has been online for over 12 years now. We've out lived just about every quality and business standards discussion forum on the internet. If we continue to improve, we may be here 12 more years! To continue to improve, we need YOUR comments about this and other aspects of the Elsmar Cove forum.

My Thanks!

I love reading everyone's post so much. Forget about the buzz around any one person; post your thoughts and ideas!

Final thought: Marc, thank you!:yes:

I join Brad's thoughts. :applause::applause::applause:

Marc and Colleagues,
I applaud the general level of civility on these boards. Obviously the result of hard work. Thank you! :applause::applause: I have a question. If a post is reported, is the poster informed, even if it is decided the post is in policy? I realize you may not want to disclose who did the reporting, but given the multicultural atmosphere hereabouts, I for one would like the feedback of knowinf that someone had a problem with my posting.

Geoff Withnell

If the post being reported is about a specific person, that person will be contacted about the reported post unless the moderators deem the report as invalid.

When a post is reported with the Report button, a discussion thread is started in the Moderator's forum. No one except the moderators knows the post has been reported. Depending up the specifics, the person reporting the post may or may not be contacted. Unless it is something very unusual, a public response is typically not made. In some cases the post (or posts) may be edited to remove offending content. In other cases the post(s) may be archived from viewing (called 'soft' deleting the post or thread) so the post or thread stays in the database but no one can see it is there.

Selectively editing thread content is not typical, but we reserve the right to that option and from time to time we do edit a post in a thread. Unfortunately, this version of vBulletin does not track every change so we hesitate to edit posts. However, the upcoming version (it is in beta 3 now with 'Gold' release expected around March - April 2008) has incorporated tracking of all changes to posts (each post will have a detailed edit history no matter who edits the post).

If a reported post is something like reporting forum spam, it may not be reported back to the person reporting that we deleted the post/thread and banned the spammer because there's really not much to report. But, even in these cases some of the moderators do PM or email the person who reported the post.

In cases where a significant 'transgression' (for lack of a better word) is reported, it is pretty standard to report to the person who reported it what the disposition is. But, again, it depends upon the specifics.

In general, the rule of thumb is to PM or email a reply to the person who reports the post.

If an issue with a moderator is reported to me personally through a PM or email, I will definitely contact the person reporting the 'transgression' to let them know I have received the complaint, and will follow up with them. As the moderators will tell you, if a moderator is involved I do take action.

In some situations I will confer with the forum 'Board of Directors'. As you can guess, this is situation specific.

When i first began posting in the Forum... i was posting for the sake of brainstorming on some ideas ... but to my recollection i was attacked on several occassions ... for no apparent reason by other members whom i need not mention and for reasons beyond my grasp, i have my suspicions as to why there were any attacks on me in the first place ...but they haven't gone beyond that.

I'm not mentioning this to attempt undermine the tremendous efforts exerted in the forum-which i couldn't even if i tried-, let alone the benefit reeped by many, including myself, but i had come to a decision once that i shall not post in the forum ever again...and only resorted to reading other posts consequently.

To be frank i still have no idea why such hostility was exhibited when i first started posting, and so whatever assumptions i have shall only be fragile and unsupported.

I do remember that i did approach Marc and notified him and he has been more than helpful to try to moderate the situation, but again, we're not kids in school, so i'd go to complain about some guy hazing me or so.

The reason i mentioned this whole deal is because i would like to approach all forum members, to be objective enough to focus on the questions/discussions no matter how simple they may seem, or no matter what grammitical mistakes they may have, or no matter which country or religion or sex or age the poster maybe.

I would like to note that many of the forum members are from non english speaking countries, but have developed the language skills needed to use the internet and find the cove and further more to implement different international standards in a language other than native tongue, and they require encouragement and understanding and respect and not ridicule.

Lastly, i'd like to re-convey my thanks to Marc and all forum veterans and moderators and all those who share in this amazing effort.

No community, virtual or otherwise, exists and prospers without different personalities. People who “inhabit” a virtual community, such as The Cove, learn over time, to identify the different members and their traits. Some are incredibly helpful, some are incredibly knowledgeable, some like the soap box, some like to argue minutia, some pontificate, etc…but, since Marc made clear that he wants a harassment-free Cove, cyber bullying is not tolerated. I think it is critical for all members to understand that intimidation, just like harassment is a perception issue; NOT an intention by the alleged “offender”. I might not intend to post an attack, but IF the receiver and other readers perceive it as such, a problem exists. And, because of that, we have to be extra careful, tactful, diplomatic and respectful, when posting our replies. Political correctness is important. I will admit that, many times, it is frustrating to see the same basic questions and misinformation repeated ad nauseum. In the past, I might have showed some impatience when replying to the same repeated question. Now, I understand that it is better for me to refrain from joining the discussion.

On the other hand and, unfortunately some people with high degree of insecurities might take any opposing view as a personal attack. For them, not only The Cove, but any social event will be an uncomfortable proposition.

What and how we post reflect, in part, on who we are, as professionals and human beings. And, intentionally or not, I believe it also indirectly reflects on our respective employers.

Me too congratulate Marc for having a harassment-free policy for The Cove. And I join the hordes of members that thank the moderators for keeping the discussions on track and enforce an environment where people and ideas are protected from intimidation.

I think it is critical for all members to understand that intimidation, just like harassment is a perception issue; NOT an intention by the alleged “offender”. I might not intend to post an attack, but IF the receiver and other readers perceive it as such, a problem exists. This is an important point. Thanks for pointing it out. It is one of the hardest parts about dealing with some Reports.

I join the hordes of members that thank the moderators for keeping the discussions on track and enforce an environment where people and ideas are protected from intimidation.

Yes, I thank Marc and the moderators also, for the marvellous job they do in all areas, at times under trying circumstances. Nice example of leadership in action: ie, set policy, and then insist it be followed, both in word and deed.

I agree with what you say Sidney, not least that about perception, and about the variety of people that make up communities. Given courtesy, goodwill and good manners from all, communities work. If these are unfortunately lacking at times, there's a need for some reminders and if necessary, some actions or sanctions. As Marc says, words written in a forum stay 'out there' - unlike a temporary blow-up in person, where only those present heard what was said...

As in any online forum, however, I think it applies in both directions, ie, those who decide to post questions or raise topics as well as those who choose to respond.

It's definitely much easier and more rewarding to respond usefully to questions, but this is really only possible where the question or request for feedback also provides information, like some kind of background context for the question and/or an indication of what kind of information or response is sought. (And if that's just a 'Hey, I'm musing out loud here', that's fine also.)

I do enjoy responding where I have time & can help, and taking part in interesting discussions - and there are many of those in here, for which I am truly grateful. I stay away from point-scoring ones, or questions where the poster hasn't made even a token effort to frame a reasonable query, do a basic search and/or is relying on others to just magically read their mind.

But as Sidney says, much better to stay silent in such circumstances than give a less than helpful or polite reply. There's rudeness and intimidation enough in the world already; no need to add more.

I'd like to reinforce the point that EVERY reported post is given consideration either by Moderators or Administrators or both.

In my experience, only blatant commercial spam (cellphones, dubious drugs, get rich quick schemes, etc.) is a target for immediate deletion and banning of the culprit posting the spam. Almost every other reported post gets some discussion until moderators reach a consensus. Some of those discussions take longer than others, but almost always, one of the moderators or administrators will pm the original reporter about the resolution of the reported post.

I am heartened by Sidney's understanding that the bulk of "harassment & intimidation" and other "personal attack" reports are, indeed, more a matter of perception and misunderstanding than of intention. Thus it serves no one's best interest to drag such a dispute into the public where one or both parties may be subjected to further comments which may inflict emotional scars.

OTHER REASONS FOR REPORTS:
Copyright posting
From time to time, folks with good intentions may post copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder. Please do not publicly "scold" such posters, merely report the post and let Moderators deal with the situation. The legal fact is that only the legal copyright holder or his (its) authorized agent may DEMAND removal of such material and, in some cases, the poster may actually have legal permission to post. In many cases, we have experience with such material and have data determining whether it may be posted. If not allowable, we merely remove it and notify the poster directly about the reason. In all cases, the most probable remedy (if copyright is really violated and the copyright holder makes an issue of it) is to remove the material as soon as possible AFTER request by the copyright holder. If after reporting the post the reporter is not satisfied with the resolution, his only legal recourse is to contact the actual copyright holder to see if that person or entity wants to make an issue of it. In the one instance in my memory where an issue has progressed this far, the copyright holder has declined action. Every reported instance so far has been amicably resolved involving no rancor from a copyright holder, so it would seem the administrators and moderators are on the right track.

Requests for copyrighted material for free
Alternately, others, who are looking to save money, put forth a plea for someone to violate copyright law and GIVE them a copy of a Standard or other copyrighted material which is available for sale "somewhere." Consider these folks merely "uninformed." They do not deserve a public scolding. The best thing is to provide a link where the requested material may be purchased legally. Note, in the case of Standards, there are some countries where the official sale price is less than others. In this day and age of global economy, it is certainly a "good deed" to point someone to such a link. If you don't have ANY link, you probably don't have a reason for posting a response, but merely ought to choose to click the "report" button for a moderator to deal with the issue.

Posting Links to free or reduced copies of copyrighted material
A third category is comprised of folks who post links where such copyrighted material may be downloaded for free or a greatly discounted price. Sometimes this is a gratuitous posting and others it is in response to a request. There is no reason to report a post with such a link, unless you are the copyright holder or his authorized agent. Plainly, we at the Cove are not in a position to take the time and effort to discover whether the site linked has permission to post or whether the url should have been restricted to those with a password. That does not prevent you from notifying the copyright holder directly for him to make a decision whether to make an issue with the site where the material is available for download. This "linking" issue has been raised several times here in the Cove and in the ASQ Forums. In every case, the situation was found to be perfectly legitimate after weeks of discussion and investigation. It may not be statistically accurate to say the probabilities are high that similar situations may be ultimately determined to be legitimate, but my own opinion is that trying to be a "good net citizen" usually results in more frustration than gratification if one leaps to a conclusion about the legitimacy of another web site without thorough investigation BEFORE making a claim.

"Fair use" copying of copyrighted material
Often, especially in the case of a Standard, someone will post a pertinent clause or phrase from a copyrighted book or document to support or illustrate a point. "Fair use" is the grayest area of copyright law. Suffice to say, each and every case is different, with no hard and fast rules that hold in every case. In my opinion (only mine) folks should consider whether the amount of material is a small or large percentage of the original. In addition, the copied material should be accompanied by personal comment (review, criticism, interpretation, etc.) to justify "fair use" for review or educational purpose. Absent the personal comment, it's just blatant copying.

I ran into an interesting quote in one of my model railroad magazines that may be applicable here on the cove. The magazine is "Model Railroad Planning 2008", and is an advertisement for one of the National Model Railroad Association's Special Interest Group's publications - the "Layout Design Journal". By the way, the LDJ does have a yahoo discussion group, and there are sometimes personality disconnects there also.

But here is the quote:

It is not the answer that enlightens - it is the question.

You won't find the best solutions if you don't ask the right questions.

The ad points out that the LDJ has been asking questions for years, and has helped many formulate their questions.

By the way, their website is http://www.LDSIG.org I don't belong to them, since my model railroad is "completed", but I do belong to a sister organization, the Operations Special Interest Group.

Let's agree first off there are several sides to every story, and definitely one's perception does come into play, which is the same perception with which evidence is judeged in audits, and court orders are passed in justice systems, however, by defining "abuse" as that which is perceived by the "offended" weighs the scales towards the whole story not being real, this is why when evidence exists the matter of perception is only left to those overlooking the evidence, not those telling the story.

It is a very awkward position to try to pin-point someone as an offender, just the same as it is difficult to pin point a worker as being "non-conforming" and this is why the "actions" should be the object of judgement.

Simply defining abuse as that which is perceived by the offended, sounds like offended people are creatures living in lala land dreaming things up and accusing others of it in order to fill up their past-time, while i totally understand that such a statement is meant to encourage people to view their output from the eyes of the receiver and not their own, and i totally agree with that as some sort of motivational statement or personal rule, but i disagree with it if applied when a group of people judge or attempt to judge a situation.

There are also situations when common perception will concurr on an action being in the form of abuse, and that's when policies are made to deterr such actions.
FACTUAL BASED DECISION MAKING

The problems come into play where a person is more 'sensitive' to some verbiage than another person is, or when a 'sensitive' person reads something into a reply that isn't a significant issue (or isn't there). That is where the Moderators and I will discuss the situation and make that decision.

I will not begin to say we will make everyone happy with our decisions. Even among the Moderators, when I make a decision pertaining to one or more of them, some Moderators are happy with the decision and some are not happy with the decision. Making everyone happy is rarely possible. Nor are 'factual based' decisions always possible.

While this thread is in part about Reporting 'offenders', other uninvolved persons can also Report what they see.

I resurrected this thread to remind people to be 'civil' to one another and to remember it is an open forum discussion where one must be considerate to others.

We can continue to discuss this, but more important is the over all reminder.

Just to chime in, I have to say the site does a fine job of maintaining a professional atmosphere while still allowing it's member base to have personalities. It's a great site for information sharing in a lighthearted atmosphere, to expect absolute professionalism at all times however, would be unrealistic in my opinion. It's an online forum with a multitude of users with differing opinions/perspectives and when you have limited anonymity people are less hesitant to behave poorly. That said, it is plainly evident that the moderators and Marc do a fine job of disarming these issues or steering them back into the realm of useful discussion.

I can't say I see much "intimidating" going on aside from perhaps the feeling a new poster may get of being an outsider, i.e. "my post doesn't matter because I'm not one of the good ole boys". I've never found reason myself to report a thread, however, and I don't think I ever will. I think perhaps it should be said that aside from moderating your own posts, asking the moderators for help, or reporting a thread/poster, it is also wise to take things lightly on here and remember if you feel someone is personally attacking you, you can PM them to resolve the issue, most likely their post was not meant to be a personal attack at all.

Good points.

I think it is critical for all members to understand that intimidation, just like harassment is a perception issue; NOT an intention by the alleged “offender”. I might not intend to post an attack, but IF the receiver and other readers perceive it as such, a problem exists.I will admit that I have been guilty of this from both sides of the issue:

I am passionate about some issues. If you are a 3rd party auditor, you would probably be offended by one of my rants regarding measuring tapes. On the other hand, I have had some of my passionately held views opposed by other Covers and, after getting over the initial defensiveness, had to admit that I was wrong (or at least could improve).

Many of the other forums I use (especially the computer hardware/software info boards) have elite corps that will harp at newbies unmercifully or trolls that come through and post garbage just to get the guys with 2,000 posts all fired up. Most of that gets filtered out here at the Cove so I think that it is important to start with the perception that most Cove posts (especially from those with high post counts, high thanks counts, and a big long karma bar) are not an attack but the poster's view of the facts.

I agree with what you say Sidney, not least that about perception, and about the variety of people that make up communities. Given courtesy, goodwill and good manners from all, communities work. If these are unfortunately lacking at times, there's a need for some reminders and if necessary, some actions or sanctions. As Marc says, words written in a forum stay 'out there' - unlike a temporary blow-up in person, where only those present heard what was said...
"The Internet Never Forgets."
I recall Jane and I going round and round about resume (or curriculum vitae) formats and information. Although there were some tense moments, in the end, I believe everyone, including me (courtesy lessons and how to use italics), learned something new. Some of the most valuable lessons are learned when two knowledgeable people are expressing differences in opinion, perception, experience, etc. Let us all ponder the difference between someone questioning your knowledge, wisdom and/or opinion (i.e. a challenge) and someone holding you at gunpoint and demanding that you hold their beliefs (i.e. an attack).

I am now just beginning my second year of regular soaking up of the GREAT expanse of information in the Cove. I wish I had found the site long ago.

This is the first time I have come across the "Attitudes and Intimidation" issue and am absolutely flabergasted by it.

To Marc, all Moderators and those who Post and Contribute, please don't be offended by those who for whatever reason, feel intimidated by what they PERCEIVE to be criticism (or whatever they wish to call it).

The subjects you are addressing for the most part do not have single, simple answers. I do not necessarily agree with some portions of the answers I see in the forum and by the same token I certainly don't expect everyone reading any of my comments to agree with me.
That prospect is actually quite scary.

What I have often found in the Cove is a slightly different perspective to my approach to a subject and that to me is magic. It broadens my outlook.

Consider the ISO series of standards. They have been developed as single entities to apply consistently in well over 100 countries in the world and they do that extremely well. Anyone who believes that with all the different cultures and approaches involved there is one single set of "correct" answers, is living in "La-La" land.

Please keep up the excellent work, you don't have to appologize to anyone!

if i were to cite some of the approaches or replies which maybe considered as harrassment, some might be: (please bare in mind that in real life, there are no full time villains like in cartoons who pride themselves with their evil schemes and dance to the tunes of their mischief, furthermore, most harmful deeds are conducted with good intentions)

1. An unsolicited apparent attack or condemnation of one of the poster's personality, qualifications, or experience for voicing out his opinion or different point of view.

2. Mockery or ridicule of a specific person or group's thoughts and beliefs.

3. Commanding or patronizing other posters into thinking that they possess some authority which they do not really have.

those are just some cases off the top of my head, i do realize that one person's simple innocent statement such as "where do you come with such topics? they all seem too controversial and apparently shallow, which brings me to doubt whatever qualififcations or experience you claim to hold"
which ofcourse can be looked at from both sides, depending on how it's presented, and your character, if you're inclined to symphathise with the one who seems like the bad guy and is under attack, or if you have a feeling of let's say native pride towards your fellow citizen you'll stand up against the foreign barbaric hordes no matter what your fellow citizen did, ...so it's all relative... this is why it's really hard to pin point controllable situations, and to ask moderators to moderate such situations, and so just as it was previously suggested all we could do is just ask people to be nice to each other, same as when parents ask their kids and their neighbors kids to be nice to each other, and just when the parent turns his back the neighbor's kid kicks you, and all the parent can say is that, it's either both you kids' fault or go into an endless story from all sides which will present no solid ground for anything and the awkward position of the kids waiting for your wise judgement on the matter, when there's not enough grounds to take it.

relying on others to just magically read their mind.

That's a feature in the next forum software update.:cool:

...relying on others to just magically read their mind.


That's a feature in the next forum software update.:cool:

I knew you were going to say that. :magic:

That's a feature in the next forum software update.:cool:

Ooh, cool. I'm definitely looking forward to that one. ;)

I knew you were going to say that. :magic:

:D

"The Internet Never Forgets."
I recall Jane and I going round and round about resume (or curriculum vitae) formats and information....

Perhaps I'm having a senior moment, but I don't recall this. Are you sure it was me you were debating the topic with, rather than another Jane? (eg, Jane Ackerman?)

You're not that senior Jane, you're a hottie;)

You're not that senior Jane, you're a hottie;)

:thanx:

Merci du compliment, m'sieur (we speaka a good broken francais downunder).

You quite made my week.

(Still possible to have memory failures though)

(Still possible to have memory failures though) I depend upon them... :thedeal:

I depend upon them... :thedeal:

I think I was going to agree with you but I forgot what you were talking about.

Dave

Huh? What?

I depend upon them... :thedeal:

My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be. :biglaugh:

Huh? What?

Good questions.

I depend upon them... :thedeal:

Hush. Don't give away the consulting secrets.

Perhaps I'm having a senior moment, but I don't recall this. Are you sure it was me you were debating the topic with, rather than another Jane? (eg, Jane Ackerman?)It was my moment not yours. It was the other Jane I was debating. However, I must ask why you are attacking me for not being able to remember someone's name. Are you hostile to and discriminating against people with bad memories?;)

It was my moment not yours. It was the other Jane I was debating. However, I must ask why you are attacking me for not being able to remember someone's name. Are you hostile to and discriminating against people with bad memories?;)
Ah hah, all becomes clear. You see, I was thinking about this later, and couldn't quite recall a debate going 'round and round' about that topic. I certainly recall some other lively debates on various topics in here, but that wasn't one of them.

Thanks for clarifying - and I very strongly agree with the point you made that one can disagree strongly with someone else's point of view, but without being rude or insulting about it. IMO, once someone descends to the level of insults or personal abuse (including hostility, intimidation and the like), it's no longer possible to debate the issue properly. Not to mention maintain a reasonable level of respect for the person so doing. Would that our policiticians would learn the same - I don't know what it's like in your lower house equivalent, but the debate here can get pretty ordinary at times, to say the least. Rather like a school playground argument.

However, I must ask why you are attacking me for not being able to remember someone's name. Are you hostile to and discriminating against people with bad memories?;)

:nope: :nope: :nope:
Heavens, no, not me. In fact, I'm considering becoming the patron of the CFTOUWPMFN (Centre For Those Of Us With Poor Memories For Names), a most excellent organisation with a rapidly growing membership. I'll let you know when we set up a chapter in the USA and extend a personal invitation to you. (In writing. With at least 2 follow-up reminders). :D

In fact, I'm considering becoming the patron of the CFTOUWPMFN (Centre For Those Of Us With Poor Memories For Names), a most excellent organisation with a rapidly growing membership.
You might have just disqualified yourself by remembering the name of the organization.:tg:

Friends,

I found this interesting article:

"Proper Internet Forum and Message Board Etiquette (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/160559/proper_internet_forum_and_message_board.html)."

Very good tips.

Stijloor.

Friends,

I found this interesting article:

"Proper Internet Forum and Message Board Etiquette (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/160559/proper_internet_forum_and_message_board.html)."

Very good tips.

Stijloor.

Thanks for the link. It is helpful for a 'dos and don't' that I am working on.