A different question here.
I know we are required to keep PPAP info for Life of Active Part +1 Year. My question is: We do not manufacture the part, we apply a coating or plating. Are we responsible to maintain a "Master Sample" of the PPAP'd part, or are we responsible for maintaining the PPAP information (i.e. salt spray result, plate thickness etc.).
My predessor has 5 samples (2 tested, 3 untested) kept for all PPAP'd parts. Since we only apply the plating I don't feel that it is our responsibility to keep the parts, only the info.:agree1:

A different question here.
I know we are required to keep PPAP info for Life of Active Part +1 Year. My question is: We do not manufacture the part, we apply a coating or plating. Are we responsible to maintain a "Master Sample" of the PPAP'd part, or are we responsible for maintaining the PPAP information (i.e. salt spray result, plate thickness etc.).
My predessor has 5 samples (2 tested, 3 untested) kept for all PPAP'd parts. Since we only apply the plating I don't feel that it is our responsibility to keep the parts, only the info.:agree1:

Refer to 1.2.2.17 Master Sample in the PPAP manual. There is a requirement for sample retention. Nothing is said about the quantity of samples.
The quantity of 5 that you are retaining could br a customer requiement. I know at one time Ford used to require that the supplier keep 5 samples.

Stew
I agree with Sam - however - I haven't specifically told our painting/coating suppliers they HAD to. As our customer's supplier (is that a redundancy??), I've always felt it was our responsibility to keep "Master Samples" and we do so.

:2cents: (Marc - I like this one)
Bill

We have to submit samples (tested and not tested) to our vendors. Isn't this redundant? They are responsible for the finished product (he who touched it last.....) so for us to keep a sample is for naught. Am I right?

If you get material from US steel, do you require them to keep a sample of the steel? It's the same. I will maintain a certification of the coating or salt spray results, that I supply, but that should be it. I should not be required to keep a sample of "YOUR" product. Just the portion I'm responsible for (plating thicknes, etc.). Or should I charge a warehouse fee on each product since we do not have a recognized inventory?:applause: :read:

Stew let me expand. While I said I was agreeing with Sam's statement I was also trying to say that I (my company) do not require my (our) vendors to retain Master samples. We are a die cast/machining/light assembly plant and we send product out for impregnation, e-coating, powder coating, "T6" heat treating, etc. When a PPAP is involved, the "PPAP run" parts are processed and returned to our facility for us to submit (in most cases). Typically, we send the vendor the exact quantity we need to submit, plus one set of parts from each cavity of the mold. The one, fully processed, set is retained in our metrology lab so, even if one of our vendors wished to a retain "Master Sample", they would need to request it. Our customers are buying the fully processed part. Although a purist will certainly argue that we should be saving samples from each operation in our Process Flow, we only "officially" retain a "Master Sample" of the part "as sold" to our customers.

As I read Sam's reponse, I "heard" that he would expect your facility to retain a "Master Sample" as well as your customer then retain another set and so on up the supply chain. I can understand that from just reading 1.2.2.17. We choose to "override" that requirement with regards to our Vendors/Suppliers.

I hope my rambling makes sense today :bigwave:

Bill

That is correct. I would expect all of my suppliers to maintain a master sample on file with the appropriate paperwork. I would not expect any supplier to maintain redundant records.

Okay Sam, for what purpose? Please don't take this wrong, Because you can pull a statement out of a book and make it fit??? It serves no purpose for a vendor to keep a sample of YOUR product. For a stamping plant that does e-coating on floor pans for Vans, you would require them to maintain a master sample of some 45 Vans each model year until the Van is discontinued???? That is not feasible:mad:

You must maintain Master Samples for each PPAP. The Master Sample is part of your PPAP. So if the floor plan guy submits each part each year, yes he needs to maintain the samples BUT for ONLY the current PPAP. (Personally, I retain the parts for the life of the part. You never know when a warranty issue pops up and you need to be able to prove that it "wasn't me".)

Look on the bright side, we mold parts and have 164 cavity molds. We have to maintain 1 shot of each part.

For steel suppliers (and other bulk product-rubber, plastic, chemicals) they have different requirements including: physical sample, analytical sample report, manufacturing sample record... (see pg. 78/9).

Okay Sam, for what purpose? Please don't take this wrong, Because you can pull a statement out of a book and make it fit??? It serves no purpose for a vendor to keep a sample of YOUR product. For a stamping plant that does e-coating on floor pans for Vans, you would require them to maintain a master sample of some 45 Vans each model year until the Van is discontinued???? That is not feasible:mad:

it's not just a statement pulled from the book, it is a customer requirement to maintain a sample. Refer to not #1 in the PPAP manual for the exception.

We submitted sample with PSW but we retained the remaining samples. Upon the approval from the customers, we then re-classified these samples into Master Samples with proper labelings.

it's not just a statement pulled from the book, it is a customer requirement to maintain a sample. I understand this Sam. That's what I mean, a customer requirement for what purpose??? I.2.2.17 Note 1: says that the master sample requirement can be waived by the customer, but the part I like best is the second sentence. "The purpose of the master sample is to assist in defining the production standard, especially where data is ambiguous or in insufficient detail to fully replicate the part to its original approved state".
This is what I would like to discuss. A digital scan of any stamping can provide more data (visual & tolerance) than a marked up sample or ballooned drawing. Our coating and torque data will give you more information than a sample part. I paint a part and certify the torque, thickness, and salt spray. What will a master sample provide that my specific test data and on-going verification won't?
TDM used digital scans to provide a cutter path for their dies. Once customer buy-off was achieved, the dies were scanned and when repair/refurbish was needed they pulled down the cutter path from the digital scan. The master sample was never referenced.

I understand this Sam. That's what I mean, a customer requirement for what purpose??? I.2.2.17 Note 1: says that the master sample requirement can be waived by the customer, but the part I like best is the second sentence. "The purpose of the master sample is to assist in defining the production standard, especially where data is ambiguous or in insufficient detail to fully replicate the part to its original approved state".
This is what I would like to discuss. A digital scan of any stamping can provide more data (visual & tolerance) than a marked up sample or ballooned drawing. Our coating and torque data will give you more information than a sample part. I paint a part and certify the torque, thickness, and salt spray. What will a master sample provide that my specific test data and on-going verification won't?
TDM used digital scans to provide a cutter path for their dies. Once customer buy-off was achieved, the dies were scanned and when repair/refurbish was needed they pulled down the cutter path from the digital scan. The master sample was never referenced.

Yes, now I can see your point. You have an alternative method to the "physical" sample retention and the process sounds like a good one.
Have you approached your customer with this plan?