HELP! I'm drowning in my own ignorance (db, you can refrain from commenting on that.. thanks!) Anyway, our company has never done and will probably not do QS-defined "Tier 1" automotive work. We do not supply directly to automotive. However, we DO have some customers who have always under QS been considered "Tier 2" - that is, we supply them with some raw material, which they then either stamp/press/wish into parts that they then turn around and supply directly to automotive.

In TS I understand that they make no such distinctions between Tier 1 and Tier 2. I get that. We're doing our Pre-assessment/readiness thingee with our registrar, and they keep coming back to me about "automotive customers" and I'm getting paranoid that I just don't understand what they're looking for. We've identified the couple of customers we KNOW supply directly to automotive like Honda or GM, but that leaves customers of ours who we THINK MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLY supply automotive, but we don't KNOW and they don't TELL - don't want us knowing who THEIR customers are! It SOUNDS to me like our registrar is looking for us to name even THIS type of customer so they can then hold us to knowing about the end-customer's "supplier manuals" and such, but HOW?!! :confused: If my customer John Q Stamping stamps out parts and supplies them to someone else to make a car seat, am I responsible for knowing what the car seat manufacturer's specifications are and what his supplier quality manual says?

I be very, very confused. help?

First of all. . . it is YOUR customer's responsibility to pass along ALL requirements. . .

Second of all. . . and I am guessing here. . . you are ISO not TS. . .

Third of all. . . ISO/TS Para 7.2.1 b) "The organization shall determine requirements not stated by the customer but necessary for specified or the intended use, WHERE KNOWN."

The operative part here is the WHERE KNOWN. Your customer is remiss in not providing you with the proper information, and you can short circuit this "thingee" by adding an item to your AQP checklist requesting customer clarification of requirements and/or intended use. Do it nicely in writing to the customer. . . if you get a "No Way" response, document it as a part of your AQP process.

You are covered.

Hope this helps. . .having lived on the "dark side". . .ya gotta know how to skin the cat in the dark!

Ciao!

Actually, we are currently QS, heading to TS. We have enough Tier 2 business to "qualify" for TS certification.

We also have no design responsibilities, so we don't have an APQP process per se. We literally just take raw material orders over the phone and cold reduce it and or slit it and out the door she goes. Our customers then turn it into something useful - some make it into something useful for automotive.

Our customers typically provide us only with the basics - gauge, width, tensile strength, rockwell hardness. That's it. They may/may not mention THEIR spec in which case of course we do have that spec on file. But they sure don't tell us the specifics of what THEIR customers want. So back to my original question, am I somehow responsible for knowing what THEIR customer's want anyway just because that customer of their's MIGHT be automotive? What about cases where I KNOW their customer is automotive, but again they are only communicating to us, the raw material supplier, the things they think WE need to abide by? Is that all I'm responsible for, or am I somehow compelled to query all these folks and try to pry out of them who their customers are so I can then download THEIR customer's specifications?

Forgive my eternal pessimism one more time, but that's CRAZY. 'Cause if that's true, where does it stop? What if my customer supplies a stamped part to HIS customer, who then assembles it and supplies it to HIS customer who then supplies it to automotive? Am I REALLY supposed to be chasing this stuff all the way down the food chain? :truce:

This could go on for a while oh pessimistic one. . . . .

Ok Glass-hoppah . . Material supplier or not, there is no more ISO-9002 because the new world order has said that, if you design processes, you have to have a design process . . "Planning for Product Realization" is essentially APQP of a sort . . . it may be abbreviated, but you should have a process.

As a Tier 1 supplier in another life, we had to provide "Supplier Mapping" as part of process sign-off. . . that means from final assemblies at our plant back to the ground. With 48 - 50 components in an assembly, the "map" was the size of a phone book.

I didn't make the requirements, but in the ISO-9000:2000 training class I attended (Was in class 12/15/2000 when ISO was finally approved) that was brought up and the trainer (The registrar) clarified it as a requirement to obtain, or at least query the customer as to the final use of the product.

As I said, ask the question, get the answer (Whatever it is), and document it. You will satisfy the requirement because you made a legitimate attempt to get the information. This doesn't have to occur during the APQP phase. . . it can be done right up front by sales. As long as you have the record of the question and the answer (who, what, when, where, why and how) you're covered. :ca:

We're doing our Pre-assessment/readiness thingee with our registrar, and they keep coming back to me about "automotive customers" and I'm getting paranoid that I just don't understand what they're looking for. help?

What your registrar is looking for is a customer(s) who are automotive related and which have IMPOSED the requirements of ISO/TS 16949:2002 on your company. Included with that list would be the customer specific requirements.
If you cannot provide this information, then you may not be eligible for TS2 certification.

From the "Rules" para 1.5
"The scope of certification shall include all products supplied to customers subscribing to the certification to ISO/TS 16949:2002."

This should have been made clear during a review of your scope at your first meeting with the registrar or at least prior to setting a date for a practice audit.

The following definition, for automotive, is from the IAOB website
"Scope 1.1 General
- This Technical Specification, in conjunction with ISO 9001:2000, defines the quality management system requirements for the design and development, production and, when relevant, installation and service of automotive-related products.
- This Technical Specification is applicable to sites of the organization where production and/or service parts specified by the customer are manufactured.
"Automotive" shall be understood as including the following:
- Cars, Trucks (Light, Medium and Heavy), Buses, Motorcycles
"Automotive" shall be understood to exclude the following:
- Industrial, Agricultural, Off-Highway (Mining, Forestry, Construction, etc.)

3.1.11 "Site"
- Location at which value added manufacturing processes occur.
“Manufacturing”
- Process of making or fabricating:
Production materials
Production or service parts
Assemblies, or
Heat treating, welding, painting, plating, or other finishing services"

Thanks Sam. . . think I missed the point of thr question. . .