Our procedure said before that customer documents are retained after two years, and be dispose afterwards. I've notice that it failed to indicate the "from when". So what we did was, we added the "from obsolete/inactive date" and we have now a stamp that will tell you when it was obsoleted. My concern now is that we have lots of obsolete documents in our history files that haven't dispose yet because there's no date indicated there. I planned to traceback the current revision date of those documents but there's nothing there but the approval date of the customer, but on when we actually received the document, it was not indicated. What do you suggest to do about those documents which obviously old, ranging from 4 to 10 years old, from customer revision date)?

Thanks again for the support and inputs.

Here is what I'd do: If you know the documents are obsolete and you know they are over 2 years old (despite there being no stamped obsolete date) I'd get rid of them -- why keep what you do not need? If you are not sure of the obsolete date, stamp them obsolete as of today and get rid of them in 2 years. Finally, I would say that after 2 years the documents may be destroyed at the discretion of the person in charge of that document. That way if you are busy and don't get the document destroyed after 2 years and 1 week you do not get dinged by an auditor over something minor.

Here is what I'd do: If you know the documents are obsolete and you know they are over 2 years old (despite there being no stamped obsolete date) I'd get rid of them -- why keep what you do not need? If you are not sure of the obsolete date, stamp them obsolete as of today and get rid of them in 2 years. Finally, I would say that after 2 years the documents may be destroyed at the discretion of the person in charge of that document. That way if you are busy and don't get the document destroyed after 2 years and 1 week you do not get dinged by an auditor over something minor.Mike makes some good points here. Let me suggest you also add a clause to your Document Management/Control Procedures to REVIEW all documents periodically (any time period which makes sense for your organization) to determine whether they should be retained or discarded, regardless of whether they are obsolete. (Some obsolete documents [meaning they are no longer current revision] must be retained for life, health, safety purposes - in another thread about Volkswagen requirements, they mention retention for 30 or more years.)

We had 2 file cabinets full (and I do mean FULL) of drawings, sketches etc from various customers. Rather than try to sort all of these, we removed these cabinets for an "archive" room and installed 2 new file cabinets. Then when a customer called for one of these parts we go to the archives, pull the drawing and verify it is current.

This was done about a 18 months ago, and the new cabinets are nowhere near full.

James

This doesn't work in all cases, but when it does apply it works excellently: Determine the size of the file, bin, folder, box, or other container that holds EXACTLY the number of records for "n" years (or whatever retention time period) + say, 1/4th more. When the container is full, that is your cue to discard/destroy the "back" 20% of the records; then repeat the process.

One thing that I have done that works well is to file things by year, mark the retention on the front of the file....i.e xxxfile, 2001, retention 2 yrs min.

That way on or after January of 2004, I know that every file in that drawer is over 2 years old and I can toss them if I so choose. I just made sure that all the files were from same year and had the same minimum retention times.

Thank you all for the inputs, I always appreciated all the help. It's so nice to be here at the cove.

Finally, I would say that after 2 years the documents may be destroyed at the discretion of the person in charge of that document. That way if you are busy and don't get the document destroyed after 2 years and 1 week you do not get dinged by an auditor over something minor.

Our Registrar brought up recently that in regards to TS you can not have a procedure that has a "may" dispose of - you actually have to have a MAXIMUM retention period after which it WILL be disposed of. See 4.2.4. She says it was motivated by automotive wanting to cover their collective behinds if they had a part, for instance, that YEARS down the road/after the fact was determined to be somehow defective - they wouldn't want too many of their suppliers having RECORDS of that run, now would they!?
:lmao: :lmao:

Our Registrar brought up recently that in regards to TS you can not have a procedure that has a "may" dispose of - you actually have to have a MAXIMUM retention period after which it WILL be disposed of. See 4.2.4. She says it was motivated by automotive wanting to cover their collective behinds if they had a part, for instance, that YEARS down the road/after the fact was determined to be somehow defective - they wouldn't want too many of their suppliers having RECORDS of that run, now would they!?
:lmao: :lmao:4.2.4 (in my copy) reads
Control of Records
Records shall be established and maintained to provide
evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective
operation of the quality management system. Records shall
remain legible, readily identifiable and retrievable. A
documented procedure shall be established to define the
controls needed for the identification, storage, protection,
retrieval, retention time and disposition of records.
Note 1: "Disposition" above includes disposal.
Note 2: "Records" also include customer-specified records. I don't see anything about maximum retention time. In my understanding and experience, there are many records which may be kept indefinitely or permanently.

I would sure like to see the Registrar management citation of TS16949 rulings or interpretations to back the statement by the field auditor.

Customers Documents?

Excuse me, but as I'm new in this forum, and my native language is spanish, is still hard to me understand some terms here. Do you mean CUSTOMERS RECORDS? If you mean documents, which kinds of docs you remain from your customers?

If you mean records, I will tell what we do. We have a procedure that says that you must determine the time of active-life to that record. I mean the time you normally preserve your records in your file. This time depends of the kind of record...1 month (?), 6 months (?), 1 year (?) or permanent (?)

And then the procedure says that after complete this time you must determine a kind of disposition as i.e. destruction (?), obsoletes-file or you can select a permanent disposition if in the last point you had select permanent as preserve time.

Anyway, time depends from each record and any thing it has recorded and its importance for organization.

Again, excuse me for my english. In few weeks I hope be collaborating more clearly as soon as my english knowledgement of ISO terms improve ;)

If you mean records, I will tell what we do. We have a procedure that says that you must determine the time of active-life to that record. I mean the time you normally preserve your records in your file. This time depends of the kind of record...1 month (?), 6 months (?), 1 year (?) or permanent (?)

Again, excuse me for my english. In few weeks I hope be collaborating more clearly as soon as my english knowledgement of ISO terms improve ;)
We do mean records, as in ISO9001:2000, clause 4.2.4 / ISO14001:1996, clause 4.5.3. Hey, don't worry about your english. You seem to be a fast learner, and all you need to do is to ask.

/Claes

Auditor was referring to the NOTE that says "includes disposal", which implies I suppose, if you want it to, that you have a PLAN for disposal of the records at some point.

I'm too tired to fight today! It's 71 degrees and GORGEOUS outside, what am I doing in the middle of an industrial plant working on a Quality system TODAY?! Have terrible case of Spring Fever - I'm sensing an "off site" meeting for this afternoon! :bigwave: