They go by many names, but I am talking about being in the position of the supplier and your customer implements a web-based system for response to Corrective Action Requests as a result of recveiving non-conforming product.

What I am looking for is what your view of these systems is as the person who has to utilize it.

Example (actual) scenario:
You have a robust Quality System in place that successfully meets all your ISO requirements and your internal requirements for implementation, improvement, and records. This system includes a 'Reporting System' that handles all internal NCR's, Customer Complaints, etc. This system meets or exceeds all the current requirements your customers have for documentation support in your responses to their CAR's. Then a customer implements a new web based system where you receive an email notification of their non-conformance and then are expected to navigate to their system and complete all of their documentation for them in this sytem. This in addition to having to do it already once to satisfy your own systems. Transfer of the information to their system is cumbersome since their system does not permit any importing of info or pasting of info from documents outside their system. So you end up having to do everything twice. Their system also does not supply you with the correct or enough information to even identify the job or product they are complaining about so you also now have to contact someone to get this information. As it was, the customer ALWAYS received a response to a CAR within an hour of issuing it with immeditate investigation initiation and resolution usually within 24 hours. As it is now, the customer may not get the initial response for days as you have to wait for someone to respond with enough information so you can respond. As the supplier you are getting penalized in your quality rating as a result of this - their new system failing - and the customer demands that you use it. And on top of that, if you don't have access to email at the office (yes some people still don't, like me - long story but it just is not possible with the current phone system and computer arrangement) the customer acts like his leg is being pulled and demands that you get it.

Any thoughts - positive or negative - on these systems would be appreciated.

Sounds like you're in automotive!

We have seen some of these same concerns with several of our customers.
Have GM plus several big Tier I's. Unfortunately most of what I have to say
is to commiserate and then say ... get over it. But... a few hopefully helpful
points...

1. Keep doing your internal system, and fax or otherwise share the info
in your format with the hands-on people at the customer. They may be just
as frustrated with the new system as you are.

2. Take a hard look at the technology. I use both Netscape and Explorer,
and both allow you to do some degree of cut and paste. I may be wrong,
but I'll bet that you could save a bit of key entry by storing (say) a Word file,
doing selective cuts and pastes into their system. It may take some use of
the cryptic control characters from Windows to get there, but I'll bet it
can be done. We do this with the GM system, also Delphi (Covisint) and others.


Best regards,
Brad

Any thoughts - positive or negative - on these systems would be appreciated.
First of all: Welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

Good first post, and you are clearly not the only one having problems of this kind. It's a typical example the customers system being incompatible with the suppliers. I understand your frustration

I agree with the advice given by bpritts, and would like to add the following: You provided a clear description of the problems and extra work the application causes, for you as well as for the customer (delayed responses). I suppose you have forwarded this information to the customer? It's pretty obvious that the applicaton needs improvement.

I don't know if this helps you or not, but what you describe could be considered a change in product requirements... (ISO9001:2000, Clause 7.2.2).

/Claes

Sounds like you're in automotive!

We have seen some of these same concerns with several of our customers.
Have GM plus several big Tier I's. Unfortunately most of what I have to say
is to commiserate and then say ... get over it. But... a few hopefully helpful
points...

1. Keep doing your internal system, and fax or otherwise share the info
in your format with the hands-on people at the customer. They may be just
as frustrated with the new system as you are.

2. Take a hard look at the technology. I use both Netscape and Explorer,
and both allow you to do some degree of cut and paste. I may be wrong,
but I'll bet that you could save a bit of key entry by storing (say) a Word file,
doing selective cuts and pastes into their system. It may take some use of
the cryptic control characters from Windows to get there, but I'll bet it
can be done. We do this with the GM system, also Delphi (Covisint) and others.

Best regards,
BradI agree with Brad that the customer calls the tune, but that doesn't prevent you from doing something few customers can find fault with:
"Simply ask the customer if there is some way either to let you EXPORT your data to his form or for him to IMPORT your data."

If he says, "Suck it up!" you are still only where you started, but there's always a chance the customer will make an effort rather than face a flurry of "couldn't navigate the CAR website" as excuses for delay on CARs.

I have always found it puzzling that the big OEMs who purport to care so much about Failure Mode and Effect Analysis (FMEA) rarely use it themselves when rolling out an initiative which requires so much extra work from their suppliers and introduces a probability of delay or errors in data entry by the supplier. Kind of goes against the grain of Poka Yoke and "mistake proofing" as well, doesn't it?

At my previous employment I led the team that developed an on-line system for our corrective action request (CAR) tracking. It quickly expanded to include all corrective action type instances, even rolling to the shop floor where issues there could be input, and to service where field installations could be input.

The system was not perfect, likely still isn't.....but had some good points.

It was HTML based, viewable from any platform 24/7/365......activity was permission-controlled.....there were automatic reminders to get corrective action plans in....plans were submitted using the system so it knew plan(s) had been submitted.....there was a review/approval cycle for the plans.....automatic escalation to next level if no reply received after a pre-programmed period......allowed data mining by department, 9K clause (still 1994 version then), plant (we had numerous plants), time to respond, time to close, and external/internal audit. As the Corporate Lead, I would take the role of external auditor at other plants and internal at HQ. Plants/Divisions/departments could view real-time reports.

Suppliers had the same issue.....they could not input responses directly. Any response had to be sent to QA to be put into the system. That was mostly due to security of data issues. We were working on allowing access when I was released (PC term for laid off).

It can be done. However, it requires a forward-thinking and up to date IT group to develop and implement solutions. And the IT group has to work with the customer (for our system, I was their customer, everyone else was my customer). It also requires PLANNING to develop a system that does what everyone needs! The key to the planning is to involve the parties who need to be involved. And of course, Executive Management needs to support it.....they control the money after all.

Hershal

bpritts is right about being able to copy and paste. You can use the ctrl + c key to copy and the ctrl + v key to paste. That should make your task a little easier.

Now to the database issue. It is just easier to manage and maintain the data if it is in a database. The database allows you to generate unlimited reports and it makes Management Review reporting a lot easier. I have created and implemented databases for everything including:

CARs
PARs
Complaints
Calibration Records
Training Requirements/Records
Customer Provided Equipment
Approved Suppliers
Document Listings
Specification Listings


With that said, I would contact the customer and explain the issues that you are having with their database. Chances are they implemented it in an attempt to improve their current system and if you don't tell them that it does not work well, they may assume that everything is fine. JMHO

First, thanks for the responses so far. I do appreciate it.
1 - not automotive, electronics, more specifically wound film capacitors.
2 - cut and past is disabled completly when on their site unless the 'cut' material you want to 'paste' came from their website.
3 - all issues of incompatibility and inconvenience have been addressed with specific requests to the customer for assistance/guidance to make sure their requirements were going to be met under the current circumstances (no internet at work) and the only reply was "your on-line problems are not a concern of ours. We are demanding (yes, they said demanding) that you get access at work." The problem is we here in the Berkshires have some of the oldest copper lines and ancient phone systems (making DSL out of the question) in the country. And since the plant is on the east side of the railroad tracks, I cannot get a cable modem (they cannot cross the tracks). Satellite has been investigated, but since the plant is also nestled along side a mountain (on three sides) and a river on the fourth, they could not get a signal response strong enough to even recognize a simple network response command.

I have looked at the source code of their system on a visit to their facility to specifically address this issue. I was looking for a way to allow my databases (in Access) to communicate directly with theirs (a canned package they purchased from a company in Germany. Finally my German came in handy, much to their surprise. I actually ended up translating about a dozen technical bulletins they had received that were all in German.) I did locate a port on their system that would allow the two systems to communicate. But their IT people will not open it due to security reasons (it also allows access to their root so I kind of don't blame them.) I also discovered two ways to disable the cut and paste limitations. But again their IT people would not allow the changes again citing security reasons. (NOTE: I also checked the servers location in relation to the rest of the companies computers. It is isolated so security is only on the server itself which is entirely encrypted. Even the root you get access to is not decipherable just by being there. Apparently it is the only computer within the domain of this one IT guy. He seems very retentive in a posterior way.)

Outside of the time it takes me to input the information, the real inconvenience is that I have to hard-copy all reports in my office and then take them home and do this work from home at night.

I have another customer using a similar system. When they first implemented it we had some of the same problems. None of the solutions I worked out with them were acceptable to this customer. The person making all the trouble about it now is a new bean counter calling himself a QA person when in reality he is an accountant. I think I dislike these types the worst.

Hmm...this did not end up where I thought it would. Learning curve.

Hmm...this did not end up where I thought it would. Learning curve.At least you have an interesting screen name, a play on "alienist" from the middle 19th century:
Main Entry: alien·ist
Pronunciation: <TT>-nist</TT>
Function: noun
Etymology: French aliéniste, from aliéné insane, from Latin alienatus, past participle of alienare to estrange, from alienus
Date: 1864
: PSYCHIATRIST (http://www.britannica.com/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=psychiatrist) The beauty of a Forum like the Cove is that the threads DO sometimes run in strange directions. Perhaps we need an "Alienyst" to join the inmates of our happy asylum.

Welcome to the Cove, Alienyst!:bigwave:

Ha! Someone took the time. I have used this name online for many years. Then Caleb Carr's book came out, Alienist (very good by the way, all three in the series are good) and associations started popping up.

My first college experience (1975) was Elementary Education/Child Psychiatry. This is where I first came across the term while preparing a masters thesis. I was intrigued by the differences associated with a person termed an Alienist and a person termed a Psychiatrist.

hello, again alienyst!

Based on what you said about the customer being inflexible, demanding,
and unwilling to compromise I still think that they're an automotive company
in disguise!
Anyway, best of luck with this situation.

Brad

Their customer may be automotive, I don't know. The company I work for produces metallized film (polypropylene, polyester, polyphenylsulfide, polycarbonate, etc.) that is used in wound film capacitor, lighting ballast, battery (electric car, portable power, emergency defibrillator) applications. Anyone running a PC with an Intel Pentium II or above has capacitors on their motherboard manufactured with film from our plant produced by a customer of ours (these capacitors resolved the problems the first class pentiums had with power spikes and static failures).

to 'paste' came from their website.
3 - all issues of incompatibility and inconvenience have been addressed with specific requests to the customer for assistance/guidance to make sure their requirements were going to be met under the current circumstances (no internet at work) and the only reply was "your on-line problems are not a concern of ours. We are demanding (yes, they said demanding) that you get access at work." The problem is we here in the Berkshires have some of the oldest copper lines and ancient phone systems (making DSL out of the question) in the country. And since the plant is on the east side of the railroad tracks, I cannot get a cable modem (they cannot cross the tracks). Satellite has been investigated, but since the plant is also nestled along side a mountain (on three sides) and a river on the fourth, they could not get a signal response strong enough to even recognize a simple network response command.

I have looked at the source code of their system on a visit to their facility to specifically address this issue. I was looking for a way to allow my databases (in Access) to communicate directly with theirs (a canned package they purchased from a company in Germany. Finally my German came in handy, much to their surprise. I actually ended up translating about a dozen technical bulletins they had received that were all in German.) I did locate a port on their system that would allow the two systems to communicate. But their IT people will not open it due to security reasons (it also allows access to their root so I kind of don't blame them.) I also discovered two ways to disable the cut and paste limitations. But again their IT people would not allow the changes again citing security reasons. (NOTE: I also checked the servers location in relation to the rest of the companies computers. It is isolated so security is only on the server itself which is entirely encrypted. Even the root you get access to is not decipherable just by being there. Apparently it is the only computer within the domain of this one IT guy. He seems very retentive in a posterior way.)

Alienyst,

Welcome to the Cove!

In past experiences I have taken such issues up the chain of command, not yours - but theirs. I would document the situation (much as you have here) and send it to their President/CEO (ensure that you define your response time, before the change over to their new system as well as after). Offer your suggestions for improving their system (making it more user friendly, and providing them the information they need sooner). Above all, clearly spell out the response that you have been receiving from their organization.

The results could be: pressure from on-high forcing corrective action to their problem, pressure from on-high forcing corrective action to your problem (better access/communications), or (least likely) some form of reprimand for "irritating" the wasps nest.

Best of luck to you!

Another possibility that I don't believe has been mentioned is implementing "bridge" software that can act as a middle person and make your system speak to their system. The cleanest way to do something like this is a direct connection to their system. However, since they will not allow this it is easy enough to have some scripts created that will basically as you and fill in their forms and submit it, but it would be a script running from your own system.

The main problem with this type of system is that you would need to be careful when your customer changes their system that yours is modified in like fashion.