db posted this in the How Much Time Do You Spend Training A New Internal Auditor? (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7013)thread.

I found one case where the propective auditor could not read. He had found ways to hide it for years on the shop floor, but couldn't hide it any longer. It was decided he was too "busy" to audit, and was replaced. BTW, he did admit to me he could not read, and his supervisor knew it for some years, but told no one. He had not intent on learning either. As he put it; "I've lived over 50 years without the need for reading".I too have come across this in several different circumstances... It has always been dealt with in discreet ways. I mean, dyslexia is not exactly something people brag about. What amazes me is how well some people are able to hide the fact. In the latter years however, things have been quietly changing for the better:

I am happy to say that some of the people I have previously found to be poor readers can read reasonably well today! :read: The methods for dealing with it have improved, and they are finally getting the help they need. Many of them have commented this with variations on "...and all this time I just thought I was stupid...". Well, it turned out that they were not :) .

How do you all handle this question?'

/Claes

Claes,

This reminds me of a guy I met at my last company. He was a contractor that owned a building and concreting company. He was worth millions (as my Boss put it) but he could not read words. He could read numbers (excellent at maths and adding up the dollars) and knew what road signs meant but could not read a contract etc. He had a core of people around him that advised him. You would have to build up a vast amount of trust in the people reading your contracts. He too had no want to start reading as he had gotten by just fine.
Australia has had a major push in the last decade to ensure Writing, Reading and Numeracy (The classic three Rs) are tested and standards are maintained across the county with special remedial teachers and early childhood programs in place. My seven year old brings home 5 books a week to read and my 5 year old has three. It seems a lot of homework(along with writing and maths) but we can already see benefits.

Greg B

We had issue at my last company with a couple of the employees. We would test on Safety training and these two people always failed and always had to go through the training again. I began to sit with them and discovered that they knew the material but they did not know how to read and answer the questions. We started reading the test to them and their score improved drastically.

mshell:

I am also in GA. We have some problems, especially with employees who went to school a long time ago (and even then didn't finish). So, what they need to learn gets explained verbally, and they do fine.

We have a great tech school here in town that has an excellent adult literacy program. A couple of our employees have taken advantage of it (at no cost to themselves) but most won't.

We did have one man who was bidding on a promotion. As part of the evaluation, all applicants had to take the TABE test (for basic reading and math ability). He did poorly, and was very dissappointed. He decided to take advantage of the classes. He not only pulled his scores up, but he also had a change in attitude (not that he started with a bad one, either). I think the classes opened some "mental doors" for him.

I would encourage anyone to seek out adult literacy programs locally, and encourage their management to support those employees needing help who want help with their basic literacy skills.

This is not just an employment issue, it is a quality of life issue.

Craig

Craig,

I would encourage anyone to seek out adult literacy programs locally, and encourage their management to support those employees needing help who want help with their basic literacy skills.

I couldn't agree more. :agree1:

It is sad when you run across someone who is unable to read. Unfortunately, the area in which I live is an old mill town and a lot of the older people dropped out of school to work in the mills. Most of the mills have shut down and/or reduced their workforce. Almost all of the newer industries require at least a GED therefore, there are a lot of hard working people that are unable to gain employment without returning to school. Needless to say the poverty level is high.

It is sad when you run across someone who is unable to read. Unfortunately, the area in which I live is an old mill town and a lot of the older people dropped out of school to work in the mills. Most of the mills have shut down and/or reduced their workforce. Almost all of the newer industries require at least a GED therefore, there are a lot of hard working people that are unable to gain employment without returning to school. Needless to say the poverty level is high.

Where I work (in a steel mill), we have implemented a policy that all workers must have, as a minimum, their high school diploma. Granted, I will admit that a Grade 12 education through the Ontario education programme is by no means a guarantee that people are literate. It's a shame, really, how many people slip through the cracks in the Academia world.

Now the policy that has been implemented does not impact those employees that were already working here prior to the policy's development. But for the most part, we've got a fairly well-educated group of people and they're also always willing to help each other out. If someone has a problem reading or understanding a concept, our little "family" is always willing to assist. Kinda gets you all warm inside, doesn't it?

Where I grew up, though, is a different story...granted it's told through the eyes of a child. The town was it's own little mini-Canada....reservation on the West side of town. All French, immigrants, and lower-class English lived in town. All upper class English lived in a subdivision on the East side of town. The high school was bi-lingual, with a chain gate spread out in the hallway during normal school days to keep the English and French students apart.

In this town, literacy was not a big thing. You could get a job without the ability of reading. I was lucky that my Mom worked part-time at the library and I remember spending many evenings there with her...all curled up with a big book while she worked.

Craig,



I couldn't agree more. :agree1:

It is sad when you run across someone who is unable to read. Unfortunately, the area in which I live is an old mill town and a lot of the older people dropped out of school to work in the mills. Most of the mills have shut down and/or reduced their workforce. Almost all of the newer industries require at least a GED therefore, there are a lot of hard working people that are unable to gain employment without returning to school. Needless to say the poverty level is high.

Related to this is their age. I've found the older one is the less likely they are want to learn. A 50 year old can't see as much potential as a 20 year old, hence they seem to be less likely to want (or feel they need) help.

My wife and I are Co-Presidents of our county's Literacy Council (an all volunteer group, trained in the Laubach Way to Reading). We are a non-profit member of ProLiteracy America (formerly the Laubach organization). Some of the statistics that we have seen so far this year include the fact that in America approximately 20% of the adult population are functionally illiterate (i.e. they read at less than a 5th Grade reading level).

In addition to this, we are currently seeing some of the results of "No Child Left Behind", in that our children are NOT being held back, and are NOT being expelled, BUT are either being passed through the educational system to the point of being allow to graduate, without being able to perform even the simplest mathmatical or literary functions - or are "encouraged", by a system that is unwilling to take the time to work with them, to drop out.

In the future, we will either need to increase our efforts to provide basic skills to adults, or businesses will need to plan on using an increased number of pictographs, videos, et cetera to direct their employees.
:mad:

My wife and I are Co-Presidents of our county's Literacy Council (an all volunteer group, trained in the Laubach Way to Reading).

Good for you two!! :applause:

In the future, we will either need to increase our efforts to provide basic skills to adults, or businesses will need to plan on using an increased number of pictographs, videos, et cetera to direct their employees.

Ah yes. . . the easier less expensive bandaid approach. . . another nail in the coffin. It will unfortunately make sense to too many politicos. . .

Ah yes. . . the easier less expensive bandaid approach. . . another nail in the coffin. It will unfortunately make sense to too many politicos. . .

So true...especially as the Baby Boomers get set to retire. It's going to be hard enough to find enough people to work...let alone find enough people with the right skills...

Dave- Here is an intersesting tidbit from the past concerning Marion High School. My daughter was attending Marion High School in the mid 70's and bringing home Grades of As & Bs with little or no homework. We moved to Mt Etna and that put us in the Huntington School District. Suddenly, she was getting Cs with a bunch of homework. Had to really hit the books to get those grades up.

Ralph and Roxane got me going, so "it's not my fault" (the theme for this era) :mad:

The children of the baby boomers rode an economic high, where they had/received everything without having to exert themselves (at either learning or working) for it! [Caveat: not ALL of them]

My children were shown movies in class rather than learning to read! When did "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" become part of "History" curriculum??? Fortunately, my wife and I read a lot to the children growing up, and had them read also (aloud), so they did OK. But many entering the work force have very little initiative AND are not functionally literate (see Dave's definition).

Thank goodness for the sports page and the TV guide, they're the only things helping this generation know what "words" are.

Sorry for the rant :soap:

Ralph and Roxane got me going, so "it's not my fault" (the theme for this era) :mad:

The children of the baby boomers rode an economic high, where they had/received everything without having to exert themselves (at either learning or working) for it! [Caveat: not ALL of them]

My children were shown movies in class rather than learning to read! When did "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" become part of "History" curriculum??? Fortunately, my wife and I read a lot to the children growing up, and had them read also (aloud), so they did OK. But many entering the work force have very little initiative AND are not functionally literate (see Dave's definition).

Thank goodness for the sports page and the TV guide, they're the only things helping this generation know what "words" are.

Sorry for the rant :soap:


Rob:

Ok you started the ranting, so here's my red cents.

I don't care how much money you put into schools, I don't care what programs you have with catchy titles, and I don't even care what calibur of teachers you have (to an extent at least). As long as the PARENTS do NOT value education, and do NOT pass along the value of education to their children, chances are poor that their particular child will learn.

(rant suspended)

And, Dave, that is exactly the cycle your type of volunteer work can break. When children see their parents value education, when learning becomes part of their value system, the rest will usually fall into place.

Placing blame on teachers is bogus. Most of the time saying we are not spending enough money is a governmental money grab (the studies are there). It starts (or does not) in the home.

Period.

Craig

Rob:

Ok you started the ranting, so here's my red cents.

I don't care how much money you put into schools, I don't care what programs you have with catchy titles, and I don't even care what calibur of teachers you have (to an extent at least). As long as the PARENTS do NOT value education, and do NOT pass along the value of education to their children, chances are poor that their particular child will learn.

(rant suspended)

And, Dave, that is exactly the cycle your type of volunteer work can break. When children see their parents value education, when learning becomes part of their value system, the rest will usually fall into place.

Placing blame on teachers is bogus. Most of the time saying we are not spending enough money is a governmental money grab (the studies are there). It starts (or does not) in the home.

Period.

Craig

I think we're heading towards politics here, but I want to disagree Craig. If what you are saying is true, then that means I to blame for what my kids do (or don't in this case). I know that I'm not at fault...it must be someone else's. :rolleyes:

Thank goodness for the sports page and the TV guide, they're the only things helping this generation know what "words" are.
Hey maybe ya got something there Rob. . .We (As Baby Boomer parents) should lobby the publishers to start putting uncommon verbage in. . . so the tykes have to look them up!

I think we're heading towards politics here, but I want to disagree Craig. If what you are saying is true, then that means I to blame for what my kids do (or don't in this case). I know that I'm not at fault...it must be someone else's. :rolleyes:
db:

Maybe we are. School board elections can be real battles.

And, I do agree with you as well to some extent. The old coorelation vs causation thing, I guess.

That said, how many of the people here in the Cove were taught to read, and how to count, by their parents before they ever set foot on school grounds? I think that the Cove is populated by learned people, and many of us were even self educated in quality when we started. Even though it would not be a representative sample, maybe a poll is in order measuring at what age Cove members learned to read?

As far as you not being responsible, do I detect a sarcastic tone to your tome (it just hit me. Rolleyes was the big clue)? Even so, even if you are serious, I would submit that a child who is exposed to a passion, or, heck, even a passing interest for, learning is more likely to succeed (meaning live a fulfilling and productive life) than a child who is not exposed to those same stimuli.

And, my remark that programs such as the one Dave is working on are just the way to inject that interest in learning into a home goes undenied.

Um, I'm sorry if I have derailed this thread.

Craig

Craig, the :rolleyes: was intentional.

Taz, an alternative is to have kids visit the Cove. Jim W and Wes B have both sent me to the dictionary to figure out what they were saying. :read:

Of course, I have to use a dictionary to figure out how to spell "a". :frust:

Taz, an alternative is to have kids visit the Cove. Jim W and Wes B have both sent me to the dictionary to figure out what they were saying. :read: Of course, I have to use a dictionary to figure out how to spell "a". :frust:

I've sent my Swedish Bro Claes running for the dictionary too. . . he now knows what Oxymoron means. . . :lmao: :topic:

I think we're heading towards politics here, but I want to disagree Craig. If what you are saying is true, then that means I to blame for what my kids do (or don't in this case). I know that I'm not at fault...it must be someone else's. :rolleyes:Dave:

Do I detect a note of sarcasm?

Dave:

Do I detect a note of sarcasm.


Al, actually the note was played rather loudly. db and I have been in other threads where personal responsibility has been discussed, and I should have known better than to think for a second the post was to be taken literally.

:bonk:

Craig

Al, actually the note was played rather loudly. db and I have been in other threads where personal responsibility have been discussed, and I should have known better than to think for a second the post should be taken literally.

:bonk:

Craig
If we take this much farther, we may be banished.

Nah.... Let's just stick to the subject and all will be well. Now, I briefly touched another aspect before: Some peoples amazing ability to hide poor reading ability.

Some years back I was teaching a lad how to run and program our CMM. At first everything went very well. He quickly grasped what I was telling him and made great progress. As time went on, however, I noted that he was unable to write his own programs, in spite of clearly understanding what he was supposed to do.

It finally dawned on me that he was an abysmal reader. At the time we had been working together for years. So how was he able to hide that fact, not to mention handle the CMM so well at first? Believe it or not, but he memorized the (pretty long) sequences of commands!

I mean: If we omit the fact that I can be pretty absent minded, my memory serves me quite well. Compared to him though, I felt like an amnesia case.

/Claes

Actually I've been faking my ability to read here at the forums. In my spare bedroom I have an infinite number of monkeys with keyboards that type randomly until something comes up that the computer determines matches the topic of the thread. After a quick spelling and grammar check, I post it here.

In my internal auditor class there are several scenarios that require judgement. It was (and with some still is) common practice to have one of the participants read the scenario. I no longer do that because there are those who can read, but not very good, and you can tell they are embarrassed when they start stumbling over words.

I had one instructor (I was a participant in this class) several years ago, who began by explaining that there was a lot of reading in the class. Some of it would be out loud, to share the responsibility. If anyone either can't read, or can't read well, they were supposed to speak up at that time. I got a great idea! Let's have those who can't read identify themselves so they can be really embarrassed! What a knucklehead!

Of course, I have to use a dictionary to figure out how to spell "a". :frust:

db,
I believe that "a" is spelled "e-h". :lmao:
Cheers,
-R.

Only from a Canadian, eh?

I heard that your country was named by three explorers who each drew a letter out of a hat. The first one drew a letter and said "C, eh?", the second said, "N, eh?", and the third said, "D, eh?". :rolleyes: