Hi everyone, I need your help and comments.

My questions are:
1. We use process approach to audit our quality system. Of course we have developed our checklist. But our auditor said that we had not all the questions provided by IATF checklist and what's more, we had not covered all the elements in the standard. As for the night shift, we only audited records. He also insisted that we should night shift site audit.
2. We did defined our way to recognize our material supplier. Our auditor insisted that that was not the kind of PPAP and that We need to develop a set of PPAP. What you folks think? Our suppliers are big companies and our purchase amount is small. If we demand them complex PPAP. Perhase they will not do business with us.
3. Internal auditor qualification. We have our internal auditors trained by our consulting company. Our auditor said that the consulting company had not the qualification. But in reality in China Only Plexus has got the qualification from IATF and AIAG. What do you do in your country?

Thanks!

1) You do have to include all of the requirements of the standard in your internal audits, but you don't have to include all of the questions on the IATF checklist. I think your auditor got that requirement confused with the requirements for certification body (registrar) checklists. The "Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949:2002 - Rules for achieving IATF recognition" document says in 2.7:Certification body checklists shall include all questions contained in the "Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002".
3) Your internal auditors do not have to be trained by Plexus. Their training does have to be done to meet the requirements of appropriate customer-specific requirements though. I believe that Ford still has the most stringent requirements, but they have relaxed quite a bit from what they used to require. If you have Ford, DaimlerChrysler, or GM for customers, check their requirements here http://www.iaob.org/oem_req.html to see what they require.

Sorry - I ran out of time for a more complete answer. I'll try to check back tomorrow....

Thank you.

What I talked about is our pre-audit by BVQI. The female auditor is a part-time auditor for both BVQI Guangzhou and SGS Shanghai. We are afraid that we shall fail in the Certification audit. We included all the requirements in the standard but not all the exact questions in IATF checklist.

As for internal auditor qualification, we did them process approach audit method and CSRs. She doubted our qualifications.

Thank you. I hope we can learn more from you tomorrow. We have a huge market here---TS registration. But our country is a little bit lag behind the world in this aspect for the languange barriers of English.

She is not a professional auditor. I'm not satisfied with SGS's certifying activity.

Hi everyone, I need your help and comments.

My questions are:
1. We use process approach to audit our quality system. Of course we have developed our checklist. But our auditor said that we had not all the questions provided by IATF checklist and what's more, we had not covered all the elements in the standard. As for the night shift, we only audited records. He also insisted that we should night shift site audit.
2. We did defined our way to recognize our material supplier. Our auditor insisted that that was not the kind of PPAP and that We need to develop a set of PPAP. What you folks think? Our suppliers are big companies and our purchase amount is small. If we demand them complex PPAP. Perhase they will do business with us.
3. Internal auditor qualification. We have our internal auditors trained by our consulting company. Our auditor said that the consulting company had not the qualification. But in reality in China Only Plexus has got the qualification from IATF and AIAG. What do you do in your country?

Thanks!

1- You must address all elements of the specification, on all shifts,at all sites. Refer to the "Quality System Assessment Checklist - Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002"and the errata sheet on the AIAG website.

2- You must have a PPAP that shows evidence of conformance to your requirements and the applicable CSR's.

3- Your internal auditors must be trained by auditors that are competent in the requirements of ISO 19011, the automotive approach to process audits and the core tools. If your internal auditors are going to audit your suppliers, then they must show evidence of successful completion of the above.

Note: Plexus is the choice of AIAG, not IATF.

She is not a professional auditor. I'm not satisfied with SGS's certifying activity.

Because of the "automotive certification scheme" and the follow on witness audits all registrars will interpret the specification fairly consistant.
If you have questions concerning the competence of the auditor, discuss them with your registrar.
All auditors for the registrar go through the same training, however letting go of QS and subjectivity is still a problem for some of them.

Thank you, Sam.
One more question:for S,O,D in PFMEA, we had graded them with 1-5. Our products are such simple ones as terminal and pressed case for car audios. Our CB auditor insisted that we should graded them with 1-10 and that we must take into the potential safety problems into account. In reality, our products can not result in safety problems but assembly problems. Is our way acceptable?

Thank you, Sam.
One more question:for S,O,D in PFMEA, we had graded them with 1-5. Our products are such simple ones as terminal and pressed case for car audios. Our CB auditor insisted that we should graded them with 1-10 and that we must take into the potential safety problems into account. In reality, our products can not result in safety problems but assembly problems. Is our way acceptable?

There is no requirement to rate any particular way. However, since rating on a scale of 1-5 will give much lower RPNs of the 1-10, I would have some evidence that 1-5 rating are acceptable to your customers.

As far as safety, if they can't result in safety problems, then they would score very low. It might be important to show you at least looked at the saftey aspect, even if it not important enought to make it to the FMEA.

Thank you for the quick reply. I do agree with you. But how will we make the auditor agree with us. She is the judge during certicate audit.

Thank you, Sam.
One more question:for S,O,D in PFMEA, we had graded them with 1-5. Our products are such simple ones as terminal and pressed case for car audios. Our CB auditor insisted that we should graded them with 1-10 and that we must take into the potential safety problems into account. In reality, our products can not result in safety problems but assembly problems. Is our way acceptable?

I'm confused. In the FMEA manual the rating system is defined as 1 -10. Are yoy saying that you only consider 1 - 5 or are you saying that yiou have revised the manual to remove 6 - 10.
If you only consider 1 - 5, that is your choice, then your product does not fall within the 6 - 10 range of concern. If, however, you are revising the manual by excluding the 6 - 10 rating then that would be a concern of the auditor.
It sounds to me as if you may be offering too much information to the auditor. If the auditor asks "Why do you not have any 6 - 1o ratings" don't say "we only rate 1-5, instead say something to the effect "those ratings do not apply to our products".
I may be missing the point here (it wouldn't be the first time).

Actually there is an accepted way here doing the rating 1-5. We have analysed the potential failure to our car audio customer and covered all that. Even that, do we have to do the rating with 1-10?

My questions are:
1. We use process approach to audit our quality system. Of course we have developed our checklist. But our auditor said that we had not all the questions provided by IATF checklist and what's more, we had not covered all the elements in the standard. As for the night shift, we only audited records. He also insisted that we should night shift site audit.
2. We did defined our way to recognize our material supplier. Our auditor insisted that that was not the kind of PPAP and that We need to develop a set of PPAP. What you folks think? Our suppliers are big companies and our purchase amount is small. If we demand them complex PPAP. Perhase they will not do business with us.
3. Internal auditor qualification.
Quote

1. All shifts should be covered in onsite audits, but you could use your own checklist, you may find checklist is a suggestion under notes at standard rquirements of internal audits, it's suggestions, and better you could generate your checklist with reference of your company documentation/IATF checklist, that will help your auditor to ensure audit depth especially for your new auditors.
2. If you have your own recognition on supplier and there was no customer's PPAP procedure, you could use it as your PPAP requirements to supplier, BUT if your customer have their PPAP requirements you should apply this to related supplier. UNDERSTOOD the situation you are, maybe you can explain to auditor the quality status of your powerful supplier, you known PPAP is just want supplier understand customer's requirements clearly and supply good quality/services.
3. Believed you had define the qualification criteria for internal auditor, and if you consultant is qualified TS auditor, the training is accepted.
hope help

Actually there is an accepted way here doing the rating 1-5. We have analysed the potential failure to our car audio customer and covered all that. Even that, do we have to do the rating with 1-10?

If your scoring system is basing on FMEA manual suggested. maybe you could not score "S" to 9-10, that was in safety/regulatory requirements. but product special characteristics could reach 7-8. for O& D, it's up to your control, maybe less 6.

If 1-5 is your scoring system, it will be on your explanation to auditors.

1. You can have your own checklist but you can't left the points of IATF .And as per the guide lines the Quality Audit should cover all working hours so it it must to do the audits in the night shift also.
2.As per your supplier you can plan in phased manner
3.yes you should have tranined auditor as per IATF

2. We did defined our way to recognize our material supplier. Our auditor insisted that that was not the kind of PPAP and that We need to develop a set of PPAP. What you folks think? Our suppliers are big companies and our purchase amount is small. If we demand them complex PPAP. Perhase they will not do business with us.
3. Internal auditor qualification. We have our internal auditors trained by our consulting company. Our auditor said that the consulting company had not the qualification. But in reality in China Only Plexus has got the qualification from IATF and AIAG. What do you do in your country?

Thank you for your reply.

Still I'd like to make clear whether we have to include all the questions on IATF checklist, since we have based our checklists on identifed process , our system documents and the standard. What's more, beginning from June1 the IATF checklist shall be cancelled.

As for the trainer qualification, the state has ruled that all tha auditor in CB companies shall not engage in internal auditor training. I doubt whether other companies' trainer is qualified is still a problem and that why they can pass the CB audit.

As for the supplier PPAP. we do have a kind of PPAP requirements from our customer( not include all the items in PPAP manual). That means we shall pass the same set of requirements to our supplier without modifications, and that we have what we get from our suppliers filed in our PPAP documentsfile.

Hope your comments again.

Thank you for your reply.

As for the supplier PPAP. we do have a kind of PPAP requirements from our customer( not include all the items in PPAP manual). That means we shall pass the same set of requirements to our supplier without modifications, and that we have what we get from our suppliers filed in our PPAP documentsfile.

Hope your comments again.

This brings up an interesting question. . . Are you or your customers supplying the Big 3 in the US? If so, are there a different set of rules than in the US? Here, all requirements of the PPAP manual must be fulfilled even if the customer only wants a Level 1 warrant.

Thank you for your reply.

Still I'd like to make clear whether we have to include all the questions on IATF checklist, since we have based our checklists on identifed process , our system documents and the standard. What's more, beginning from June1 the IATF checklist shall be cancelled.

As for the trainer qualification, the state has ruled that all tha auditor in CB companies shall not engage in internal auditor training. I doubt whether other companies' trainer is qualified is still a problem and that why they can pass the CB audit.

As for the supplier PPAP. we do have a kind of PPAP requirements from our customer( not include all the items in PPAP manual). That means we shall pass the same set of requirements to our supplier without modifications, and that we have what we get from our suppliers filed in our PPAP documentsfile.

Hope your comments again.

1- From the "Rules": 2.1 - The certification process shall address all ISO/TS 16949:2002 requirements according to annex 1: Rules for auditing quality management systems according to ISO/TS 16949:2002.
You are correct, he checklist is no longer in affect June 1st. However, you must provide evidence to your auditor that you have addressed all requirements of the specification.

2- I don't understand this statement, but I will say that no one can overide the requirements of ISO/TS 16949:2002, except for the IATF.

3- Refer to the PPAP manual. You are required to maintain a complete Level 5 on file.

Our customers are all car audio makers of Honda in Japan. Their PPAP DOS not include all the items in PPAP manual indeed. We know in implementation of TS we have to prepare PPAP according to the manual requirement. Should we require our supplier according the level requirements or as we are required by our customers.

2- I don't understand this statement, but I will say that no one can overide the requirements of ISO/TS 16949:2002, except for the IATF.

my meaning is that as an auditor they can not do the auditing and training(generally regarded as consulting work and no company get the authorization from IATF here) at the same time. How is that in the States?

3- Refer to the PPAP manual. You are required to maintain a complete Level 5 on file.[/QUOTE]


We have prepared our PPAP of level 3. The problem is how should we require our supplier. Do we need to require them accrording to the manual or according to our choiced items?

Hope can learn more from you folks.

We have prepared our PPAP of level 3. The problem is how should we require our supplier. Do we need to require them accrording to the manual or according to our choiced items?

You only need to require a Level 1 Warrant from them for your submission to your customer . . . BUT
. . . They are still bound to do the full Level 3 (or 5) if they are to conform to automotive rules. They would maintain on file and have it available for review if required.

You only need to require a Level 1 Warrant from them for your submission to your customer . . . BUT
. . . They are still bound to do the full Level 3 (or 5) if they are to conform to automotive rules. They would maintain on file and have it available for review if required.

In this case should we prepare a procdedure , Wi or some other document to guide them how to do? Because in my former experience, Visteon Shanghai once gave us a whole set of their PPAP WI.

I would suggest they purchase the PPAP manual from the AIAG. That is the only reference or instruction they need. IF there is a language issue, you may want to offer the suppliers an instruction that will satisfy your requirements. Your choice.

Thank you for your reply.

Still I'd like to make clear whether we have to include all the questions on IATF checklist, since we have based our checklists on identifed process , our system documents and the standard. What's more, beginning from June1 the IATF checklist shall be cancelled.

As for the trainer qualification, the state has ruled that all tha auditor in CB companies shall not engage in internal auditor training. I doubt whether other companies' trainer is qualified is still a problem and that why they can pass the CB audit.

As for the supplier PPAP. we do have a kind of PPAP requirements from our customer( not include all the items in PPAP manual). That means we shall pass the same set of requirements to our supplier without modifications, and that we have what we get from our suppliers filed in our PPAP documentsfile.

Hope your comments again.

1) you could just select the related requirements in IATF checklist basing on the processes in your system. AGAIN, suggested you prepared checklist basing on your company documenation requirements and/or IATF checklist.

2) could you please tell me where did you see that? CB could not provide In House Training to their client cause it would be treated as consultancy, but they could held publice course, that was what I mean.

3) TS is design for various automotive OEM suppliers, It's not necessary to limit your PPAP requirements as AIAG PPAP manual, TS required you should apply all customer's PPAP requirements to your supplier, you could make change but only those not suitable for your suppliers, such as dimension checking (layout inspection) to bulk material supplier.

Hai

Good morning once again ,The isssue here we have that at any choice we have to consider all points in the IATF guide lines .We may add some specific requirements with respect to the produst.

Ex If your component is comming under engine you may left the Apperance approvel ,But you can't leave the other doc like Inspection report.

If your component is an external part you should get the apperance approvel from the customer even he dosenot mean in his requirement.


AS per IATF the auditors should be trained to ensure the effectiveness of the system by the approved Agencies.

So as like your customer you have to get the PPAP from your supplier to ensure the conformance of the product


REGARDS

R.L.SATTHISH KUMART