Wes Bucey asked me to start this new thread to discuss some of the things I found "messed up" in my current read. The title of the book is "Engineering Documentation Control Handbook" by Frank B. Watts.

In the thread where Wes asked me to elaborate, I mentioned that this author indicates in several locations that "every use of a form should have a form instruction" which I do not agree with, and I don't think others here do, either.

During a discussion on writing and formatting standards, the author states, "Since we are talking about standards to be audited (by CM, Internal Auditor or ISO) the best decision is to cover inter-departmental steps but to exclude the intra-departmental steps. Each department might have their own "work instructions" which should generally be left out of the CM 'manual' and left out of audits." Later he indicates that you should "include elements of the processes which are cross-departmental/functional. Do not include departmental instructions since they are/should be subject to rapid change and aren't cross-departmental business" and "the (procedure) shall not contain a separate section for cross-references to other related or associated (procedures). This practice creates a "web" that is very difficult to originate and to keep up to date." This is counter to the process approach of the current ISO-9001 standard.

In general, I also do not agree that "in order to be systematic and well-understood (a system) needs to be documented". I understand his intention, but you should never say "all", "never", "every", etc.

He does mention an ISO CM guideline, ISO-10007. Has anyone seen this? Is it worth a viewing?

In general, the book has some great ideas for creating a fast-acting document control/configuration management system. The only other thing I have to say is that he focuses on just the design-related document control, and only eludes to others. I think he could really open this subject up. Look at what everyone here has to say about document control! We could write a book!

I don't have this book in my own library, nor am I familiar with the author.
I went to Amazon and looked at the Table of Contents and at least 1st page of Index. Curiously, index does not mention ASME which maintains the Standards for Document Creation and control of revisions and Associated Documents, including Bills of Material, etc.

I'm on my way to give a speech. I'll look back at this over the weekend and see if any public or college libraries near me have the book.

I can't condemn or condone until I have more info.

Thanks for taking my suggestion, mitsu11. Besides looking at this book, we can also discuss minimum considerations for Document Management of Control (in my opinion, "Control" is a subset of "Management" and I'll elaborate on this theme later.)

Configuration Management is not only the concept of maintaining revision control/management, but of the concern about how various versions may be freely substituted for each other in function. (can a Phillips head fastener be substituted for a star drive fastener of same length, thread, and material? If not, why not? appearance or function?)

Anyone else with thoughts or experience with the book?

Me just seeking knowledge.

Under the title of document control, is there really a difference between contol depending on industry? It seems to me that the function of document control is fairly structured and is valid across all industries. The only differences I can think of are who, what, when, where, and why. The consideration of "HOW" is the most importand because it considers methodology, not structural data.

Al...

Me just seeking knowledge.

Under the title of document control, is there really a difference between contol depending on industry? It seems to me that the function of document control is fairly structured and is valid across all industries. The only differences I can think of are who, what, when, where, and why. The consideration of "HOW" is the most importand because it considers methodology, not structural data.

Al...Good questions, Al. I agree not much difference in basic procedures between industries. Let's explore basics:

Document Management = creation, approval, storage, retrieval, retention (this is just an extension of a good filing system)
Document Control = WHO can (or should) have authority to create, approve, review, use, modify or revise, delete; also, whether we use "push" method of distribution or "pull"
Configuration Management = Management AND Control (Documents, Products, and Processes) PLUS determining compatibility with previous versions and associated products, processes

I'm in the beginning throes of creating a short "white paper" about Configuration Management. My hope is to keep it to one typewritten page of text plus one flow chart - wish me luck! For some reason. I seem to be unusually busy this week and I'm struggling to find some uninterrupted blocks of time to work on this. I expect I'll post it later this week.

Wes,


Will be looking forward to the article!!!:applause:

Al...

I agree that document control should be conducted similarly across the board. This author, however, insists on specifying where manufacturing or quality documents must be maintained separately from the design documents. As a matter of fact, he goes into manufacturing documents further to say that many do not need more than date control so long as they can be tied to the design document.

It is actually interesting to note that for most of the book, he subscribes to a team-oriented approach to design and change control, inviting many functions within the company to participate in the discussions with engineering. On the side, though, he doesn't support that "team" approach by eluding that those documents aren't as critical as the design documents.

I'm in the beginning throes of creating a short "white paper" about Configuration Management. My hope is to keep it to one typewritten page of text plus one flow chart - wish me luck! For some reason. I seem to be unusually busy this week and I'm struggling to find some uninterrupted blocks of time to work on this. I expect I'll post it later this week.

Hello Wes did you had time to put thisarticle altogether ?

V

Document Control opens up a can of worms here. What does constitute "controlled documents"? What exactly should be controlled? Does 4.2.3 cover this dilemma?

Our files for controlled documents are labeled as PPAPs. (GM, Chrysler,Ford and others). Within these files we currently place a variety of document under each product number. (corrective actions, Drill Deep and Wide documentations and so on and so on). It is my understanding controlled documents should not be a catch all.

Help :thanx:

Hi all,
As a 20+ year Configuration Manager I would like to add my thoughts.

The Engineering Document Control Handbook is OK as far as it goes, but don’t confuse Document Control with Configuration Management. Configuration Management consists of 4 aspects:
1. Configuration Identification – up front definition of the desired end result. If you are going to begin with the end in mind first you must define the end.
2. Configuration Control (Document Control) – change control of not only Engineering documents but of all items that may impact the end result.
3. Configuration Status Accounting – a running tally of where you are in your execution of the plan to achieve the desired end.
4. Configuration Audits - the verification that you have achieved your desired end.

The most important aspect is Configuration Identification. With proper identification you will minimize change control, simplify status accounting and the audits are no-brainers.
Over the past few years the term Configuration Management has become synonymous Document Control. The goal of Configuration Management is to minimize changes. Changes, no matter how well controlled and communicated, are expensive.

Frank Watts defines Document Control as the bridge between Design Engineering and the rest of the world. I feel this is a rather narrow view and prefer to define it as the communication hub ensuring ALL functions involved are working from the same information.

Wes,
I look forward to reading your white paper.

Re: white paper on Configuration Management
It's been kind of like "belling the cat" - lots of good intentions, but also lots of distractions and "higher priority" items.

I haven't forgotten the concept and am struggling with consolidating tons of information into a READABLE one page document which can be used as a reference for "wising up" the suits in the c-level suite and still not insult the experienced Quality practitioner.

ddunn's outline of configuration management does point up the concept of assuring compatibility with Associated Documents. (mating parts, current inventory, future repairs, interchangeability, etc.) Of course, it is important to realize when the backward and forward compatibility between revisions is no longer possible to maintain and so a new part number or document number must be created and notice made of obsolescence of the previous model.

I agree that Configuration Management is NOT synonymous with Document Control, but is much wider in scope. If anything, one might safely say Document Control is only a subset of Document Management and Document Management is merely the "file clerk" portion of Configuration Management, which requires encyclopedic knowledge of the entire organization and its capability and capacity vis a vis products, services, supply chain, customers, regulators, etc. to perform excellently.

Thanks, folks, for the reminder. I'll try to move the project up my priority scale.

Re: white paper on Configuration Management
It's been kind of like "belling the cat" - lots of good intentions, but also lots of distractions and "higher priority" items.


Thanks, folks, for the reminder. I'll try to move the project up my priority scale.

Wes,
In light of some recent posts regarding Document Control and Configuration Management, I remembered your post regarding a Configuration Management white paper.

How is it going? I am still very interested in reading it as I am sure many others are.

I am still very interested in reading it as I am sure many others are.
Absolutely!!

Good questions, Al. I agree not much difference in basic procedures between industries. Let's explore basics:

Document Management = creation, approval, storage, retrieval, retention (this is just an extension of a good filing system)
Document Control = WHO can (or should) have authority to create, approve, review, use, modify or revise, delete; also, whether we use "push" method of distribution or "pull"
Configuration Management = Management AND Control (Documents, Products, and Processes) PLUS determining compatibility with previous versions and associated products, processes

I'm in the beginning throes of creating a short "white paper" about Configuration Management. My hope is to keep it to one typewritten page of text plus one flow chart - wish me luck! For some reason. I seem to be unusually busy this week and I'm struggling to find some uninterrupted blocks of time to work on this. I expect I'll post it later this week.


In my search for information on configuration management, I noticed your posts concerning a short white paper you were writing. If you have completed it, I would very much like to read it. If complete, please let me know where I can find it. Thanks.

In my search for information on configuration management, I noticed your posts concerning a short white paper you were writing. If you have completed it, I would very much like to read it. If complete, please let me know where I can find it. Thanks.I have written it, but I have it out for a magazine article (first serial rights), and part of the deal will be 45 day exclusive before I publish on the internet.

sorry - can't blame me for trying to make a buck - semi-retirement has unexpected expenses.

I have written it, but I have it out for a magazine article (first serial rights), and part of the deal will be 45 day exclusive before I publish on the internet.

sorry - can't blame me for trying to make a buck - semi-retirement has unexpected expenses.

Wes, you are one of the Gurus of Quality. That is why everyone wants to see your writings. It shows a lot of respect to you that everyone wants to read it. You are well respected by your peers in Quality.

sorry - can't blame me for trying to make a buck - semi-retirement has unexpected expenses.
No, sir, you certainly can't. :agree1: Looking forward to reading it when it's available.