From: http://http://www.qualitydigest.com/

ASQ Releases New Membership Model

In an effort to boost its membership base, the American Society for Quality is rolling out a new membership drive aimed at both the professional quality community and the general public.

ASQ has seen its numbers decline in recent years, but the new membership model is designed to show professionals the value of joining ASQ. The living community model has several tiers of membership, all designed to be flexible, educational and provide networking services. The new model is part of ASQ’s overall push to raise awareness about the quality industry.

The new membership model was initiated at the request of ASQ’s board of directors and is designed to provide choice, flexibility, and open the doors of membership to anyone interested in the practice and/or profession of quality. Plans call for the model to be implemented in three phases, beginning with phase one this year and continuing over three years.

The new membership categories for phase one are forum/division and associated. Also offered are an enhanced regular membership, which is based on ASQ’s current regular membership type, and a student category. ASQ’s new regular membership category includes fellow and senior grades. Phase one focuses primarily on individual categories. Phase two will add more benefits to these categories and will offer various options for group, organization and corporation memberships and sponsorships.

The forum/division membership is intended to appeal to individuals who have an interest in quality focused within a specific industry or topic. Forum/division membership provides benefit access primarily through an online environment, although face-to-face and networking opportunities will be available to further engage the member.

Benefits are based on research with current and prospective members’ requests, as well as benchmarking against other professional association offerings.

ASQ’s approach with sections as a local, geographic presence for member participation is continued in the model, given that sections are included in the regular and student member categories. With an infusion of new members, local section membership and activity can be embellished in the new model. All membership levels offer the option to select additional sections for $20 each. One forum/division of the member’s choice is included in the new regular membership. Forum/division memberships can be added to any membership category for $10 each.

I didn't rejoin. The fee went from $85 to $125 with nothing really offered other than Q' Digest. I'm doing the American Society of Safety Engineer thing now.

I was a member since 1992 and have not rejoined.

All I get are ads that try to sell me something that I do not need.



Danny

So, the ASQ knows that their current, long-time members, the "Q Pros", are unhappy with the current state of affairs, so they try to cast a wider net, and get members who are outside of the "Q" realm? All while raising the price?

Maybe quality people, as customers, are just too tough. Does the new fee setup remind anyone else of some of those "plans" offered by cell phone companies? Or, maybe like a phone bill?

Oh, well, can't dazzle 'em, baffle 'em.

So, the ASQ knows that their current, long-time members, the "Q Pros", are unhappy with the current state of affairs, so they try to cast a wider net, and get members who are outside of the "Q" realm? All while raising the price?

Maybe quality people, as customers, are just too tough. Does the new fee setup remind anyone else of some of those "plans" offered by cell phone companies? Or, maybe like a phone bill?

Oh, well, can't dazzle 'em, baffle 'em.I'm stressed by my own state of mind over the ASQ. I have been a strong supporter and advocate of ASQ since the early days when I joined ASQC and lobbied hard for dropping the "C" or "Control" from the name (which I thought emphasized the "police" aspect of Quality departments which made them so hated and feared throughout industry.)

Now I find myself hesitating not only on which membership model to choose, but whether to choose any. I love the people in my Sections. They are hard working, knowledgeable folks. I just can't understand how we as an association have let our paid staff become the tail that wags the dog. I am absolutely frustrated by the open contempt some of the paid ASQ staff have for the general membership. I am really confused by the inability of our elected officials to retake control and display real leadership. These were not evil people before they became officers; are they blind? tempted? afraid?

Yes, the models for membership are a little confusing. I find it hard to equate how an organization which administers the Baldrige awards can be the same organization which ignores its own "customers."

I also have not bothered to renew this year. I agree that I get mostly junk mail from them. I rarely read Quality Progress. I plan on maintaining my CQMgr, CQE and CQA, but don't really need to pay annual fees for those - or I will for the discounted price in a couple years when they come due. I am out of the consulting world, so the ability of networking at conferences and getting speaking engagements is limited. It ends up being a very expensive subscription to a magazine I never get around to reading.

Tom

There are two reasons for my decision to renew my membership:

1. My employer reimburses me for the expense.
2. The ASQ that I am proud of being a member is the grassroot ASQ. The one down at the chapter level. The one populated with hard working individuals, willing to sacrifice their personal time for the greater Q good.

But just the fact that long standing members are jumping ship is a serious indication that something wrong is happening. Seems to me that revenue constraints will force ASQ to do a serious soul search, sooner or later.

Iam an ASQ Member since 1998 and Senior Member since 2002. Iam paying the same fee as before the implementation of this model. Now I get free forum too :) By being a Senior Member, I am also entitled for a free publication.

Besides, Iam also a Registered QMS auditor in IRCA (UK) and Licensed by Professional Engineers Ontario.I think I get "more for the fee" from ASQ compared to the other two.

I have NO regrets for being a member of ASQ. Iam proud of being a part of this association and having an opportunity to volunteer for Quality.

I have gained a lot of knowledge by associating with ASQ professionals and the organization. As long as I can afford, I will continue to be a member of ASQ.

Govind.

So, the ASQ knows that their current, long-time members, the "Q Pros", are unhappy with the current state of affairs, so they try to cast a wider net, and get members who are outside of the "Q" realm? All while raising the price?

Maybe quality people, as customers, are just too tough. Does the new fee setup remind anyone else of some of those "plans" offered by cell phone companies? Or, maybe like a phone bill?

Oh, well, can't dazzle 'em, baffle 'em.

Isn't the whole thing rather sad. As I noted on another thread, perhaps the Cove is winning out on several fronts because, ultimately, the purpose of any professional institution is to provide a forum for people to exchange information, case stories, solutions to problems etc. And with the Internet and such bodies as the Cove this can be done far more quickly, less formally and without unnecessary intermediaries that might (unwisely) determine what is or is not to appear in the regular (hard copy) publications. The Cove is more vibrant and agile than the traditional institutions.

As to membership and fees, I offer these points for consideration and comment:

The membership of Britain's IQA is approximately 12000, perhaps 20% lower than only a few years ago and is stagnant at that level. The fees are far higher than the ASQ, if converted at today's exchange rate. Therefore, one might argue the price per member for being in that smaller pool of professional knowledge is much higher than at the ASQ. Of course, one also has to consider whether or not the publications/ services etc are superior such that, in the end, the IQA offers superior value for money. That does not seem apparent, at present.

Perhaps the IQA and ASQ ought to consider the work of Professor Arthur Laffer, whose famous curve influenced tax policy in the US and UK some years ago. In brief, if you reduce the tax rate, more people pay taxes and the gross receipts are much higher. Even President's Putin's Russia has discovered that inthe last couple of years as it has introduced a flat tax of about 19% (if I recall an article either in The Economist or Business Week). If those bodies were to reduce the fees, maybe more people would join.

I am at a loss to understand why one should pay more for belonging to additional sections. I see no professional justification for it.

During an assignment last year, I reviewed about 350 resumes for a client. My rough estimate was that about 10 - 15% of the applicants for positions of quality managers at my client's sites had ASQ or similar membership, a CQA, CQE or some such. Yet all could show experience of working in quality departments. Moreover, in my client's 7 plants not a single person in the various quality departments was involved at all. Only one had been but had quit, disillusioned.

Anecdotal evidence obtained chatting with folk is that, like company cars, reimbursement for membership fees is being phased out, as a supposed cost saver, as is support for attending the ASQ and similar conferences. Couple that with similar claims from various people that salaries have plateaued or are falling , especially for entry level quality folk, and the burden of membership "taxation" is something most folk are concerned about.

But, if employers were really concerned about membership, would not they insist new recruits could show MASQ, MIQA, FIQA or some such? That so many of those resumes lacked any evidence of involvement of people (many out of work) suggested that employers probably care less about it.

Though my remarks may not suggest I have undertaken a "scientific" study of the situation, put together and the ASQ and IQA face a lethal cocktail. It comes down to this: the real user of the professional product (of memebrship) is the employer or client. If they believed that membership, CQEs, CQMs CQAs or whatever held out real benefit for the firm, they would probably insist on it.

However, may I somewhat mischeviously suggest, if those same employers and clients knew how vibrant and informative are the Cove's chat rooms - maybe they would insist on a MOMC: Member of Marc's Coves!

I'm doing the American Society of Safety Engineer thing now.How much is it costing you and what do you get from them that you don't from the ASQ?

I also renewed membership, but I must be honest and say only because my employer paid the bill. I do enjoy some of the articles in Quality Progress but most are a real bore. Quality Digest is now arriving and I am not thrilled with it either.
I never had time to seek the certifications offerred by ASQ as I was always persuing other adventures of which some, at least, were for a more formal education.
What I enjoyed most was the online forums which in the past took a nose dive. Thats when I noticed several post at ASQ referencing the "cove". I have gotten more out of the cove in two months then I got out of the ASQ in 14 years (member since 1990) and I might add I feel much more comfortable here at the cove then I ever did at ASQ.
Chances are, come next year, unless I see dramatic change in ASQ's approach, I will not renew. :(

Now I find myself hesitating not only on which membership model to choose, but whether to choose any. I love the people in my Sections. They are hard working, knowledgeable folks. I just can't understand how we as an association have let our paid staff become the tail that wags the dog. I am absolutely frustrated by the open contempt some of the paid ASQ staff have for the general membership. I am really confused by the inability of our elected officials to retake control and display real leadership. These were not evil people before they became officers; are they blind? tempted? afraid?

Yes, the models for membership are a little confusing. I find it hard to equate how an organization which administers the Baldrige awards can be the same organization which ignores its own "customers."
I, also, am thinking about not renewing my membership. I almost didn't this year, but my employer pays the dues and feels that the membership is something that I should carry. The new model seems to be just another way to gain additional funds while reducing the benefits to the "plain jane (or john)" rank and file members.

Just like their forums, you get one forum membership and have to pay extra to take part in the rest. Now, why would that be helpful to the members? Somewhere in these forums is an explanation (now this is my very loose interpretation, so let's not get too tied up in it) that says the forums were set up this way to insure that participation is based on your area of expertise. Now, while I am all for having "expert" advise, I probably will not have that many questions in my area of expertise anymore. Can I help newer people in that area (ISO 9001 certification, doc control, etc.)? I surely hope so, or would like to think that one or two folks have benefitted from what I have contributed here. That's all good. But, if my subscription is to that forum area, how will I get guidance on the things that I am not so confident of my abilities in?

I really feel that ASQ is trying to set up some sort of caste or fuedal system where we are guilted into continually buying our way up the ladder, so to speak. i.e., if I give the royal family something very valuable or serve some function that pleases them, I might be made a lady or a duchess? OK, I do not want any comments from the long time members about my being a lady, lol!!!:lmao:

No, plain and simple, I do not feel as a member that this new membership model is helpful to the membership at all, except for maybe those few that have a continuing need to set themselves above the "common" quality practitioner who is out there on the front lines, getting grease and dirt under their nails and "hat head". Just because I cannot write really educated papers that would make a Ph.D.'s heart race, doesn't mean that I am an idiot. Just because I cannot quote Demming, Juran, or any number of other quality gurus by rote for every occaision, does not mean that I don't get the general principals. ASQ, wise up! You are supposed to be a society of quality professionals, not some stupid frat system where the only thing that matters is how wealthy your family is, or how many goldfish chased by beer you can consume. And yes, that is what I feel that ASQ is coming to. Nothing more than elevated high school cliques for self important, or self serving twits to set themselves apart in some higher social status than they would ever be allowed to reach in the natural order.

Oh, gosh, is today rant and rave day? My apologies in advance if I hurt anyone's feelings, there was nothing personal intended to anyone who posts to these forums.

How much is it costing you and what do you get from them that you don't from the ASQ?

The corporation paid for me...$125 a year I think. Seeing that my focus is now on OSHA and EPA compliance it makes more sense than the ASQ does with my current job.

One big difference between the ASQ and ASSE that I've noticed is the forum...ASSE doesn't have one.

I find it hard to equate how an organization which administers the Baldrige awards can be the same organization which ignores its own "customers."

Ahhh, yes, that is irony at its best! ASQ, heal thyself.

I quit my membership as soon as the company stopped paying for memberships a few years back as I felt it was not worth spending MY money for what I got out of it. The magazine occasionally had an interesting article, and the company thought the membership cert looked good on the wall for awhile, and that is the only real benefits I/we ever got. For some people it might be great -- but not for me.

I received this as an e-mail today.:rolleyes:
http://view.exacttarget.com/?fec5107471630779-fe2a13707660037f731676

Darn... No Elsmar Cove Forums under Links in that e-mail... :rolleyes: Yeah - I got the same e-mail yesterday.
One big difference between the ASQ and ASSE that I've noticed is the forum...ASSE doesn't have one.Is there an ASSE forum anywhere?

Ahhh, yes, that is irony at its best! ASQ, heal thyself.

I quit my membership as soon as the company stopped paying for memberships a few years back as I felt it was not worth spending MY money for what I got out of it. The magazine occasionally had an interesting article, and the company thought the membership cert looked good on the wall for awhile, and that is the only real benefits I/we ever got. For some people it might be great -- but not for me.just a side note:
once you have the certificate in a nice frame on the wall in your office, no one EVER asks to see your updated membership card. ASQ does not issue a new wall certificate with each renewal.:D

Darn... No Elsmar Cove Forums under Links in that e-mail... :rolleyes: Yeah - I got the same e-mail yesterday.
Is there an ASSE forum anywhere?Marc, why not write to this person and ask if ASQ would like to advertise in your website? - You certainly get enough hits to make it worthwhile.
For questions or comments regarding ASQ's Image Enhancement initiative, contact Lisa Martinetti Myer (lmyer@asq.org), ASQ senior manager, Communications.

In regards to the "new membership model" question, I have quite the paradox. Along with ASQ, I also belong to NMRA, the National Model RR Association. Now, there are some interesting parallels:

1. Both organizations are losing members, or so the claim is. Just try to find the numbers . . .

2. Both did a self-reflection over the past several years, and decided that membership structures needed to be changed in order to get more members.

3. Both organizations have started national advertising campaigns. By the way, the one for model railroaders is "WGH" World's Greatest Hobby. I am sure that phrase is trademarked also.

But here is the difference:

ASQ is moving from a one-size-fits-all dues (one set of dues gets you local and national level organizations) to a mixed structure of many different dues levels and many different benefits. This will increase membership! :whip:

NMRA is moving from a mixed structure of many dues (local region membership is separate from national) to a one-size-fits-all dues. This will increase membership! :whip:

Hmmm.......

Marc, why not write to this person and ask if ASQ would like to advertise in your website? - You certainly get enough hits to make it worthwhile.
For questions or comments regarding ASQ's Image Enhancement initiative, contact Lisa Martinetti Myer (lmyer@asq.org), ASQ senior manager, Communications.
They do have a link to this site on their site. To be honest, I wouldn't feel right. As you've undoubtedly seen, I even put a link to the main ASQ site in the forum sidebar. Right now I think the best thing they could do with respect to 'Image Enhancement' is to keep someone from there stopping by here a couple of days a week to address questions and comments that come up here about the ASQ.

I guess I'm really ambivalent about the whole ASQ thing. They're a quite typical 'professional society' to which membership means more to some folks than to others. I first started with the then ASQC back in the late 1980's and they immediately turned me off, so to speak, at that time. But - it was 'expected' of 'quality professionals'. I did some time involved - for a few years I even taught some local CQE refresher courses for the local as a volunteer. During the middle 1990's I stopped paying as I saw no value and was seeing that companies were, or appeared to be, more interested in overall experience and 'qualifications' vs. a CQE, for example. I can't remember the reason I joined up again - I think it was a year or two before Kevin Mader started the Senior Member thing. If I remember correctly, I explained that I had been traveling almost exclusively from about 1991 through 2000 and dropped my membership because I wasn't even home enough to read the magazine. They gave me a by because I had been a member for quite a few years when considered as a whole.

Steve Prevette's comparison may be indicative of most organizations in today's world where their relevance to most people matters less and less. I am not even entirely satisfied that there really is anything the ASQ can do to build membership.

As for advertising, this may sound stupid - and in a way it is - but I've talked a few companies out of advertising. It's not that I wouldn't like a few more advertisements and the money they would bring, but I see advertising here as mostly for name recognition. I won't 'pay per click' or any of that stuff because I don't want the accounting hassle of tracking them and I don't want to turn this site into something like the Flashing iSixSigma site. When I go there I sorta have to shrink the window and try to filter out all the falshing and movement of all the advertisement OR take a Dilantin or other anti-convulsive to keep from having seizures (just kidding - It's not THAT bad, but then again..) And I don't want anyone to expect sales because of advertising here. I'm happy Google ads are going OK but even there - I question whether companies really get their moneys worth out of it.

The ASQ actually gets a lot of coverage here without advertising - good and bad.

Just thinking out loud...

They do have a link to this site on their site. To be honest, I wouldn't feel right. As you've undoubtedly seen, I even put a link to the main ASQ site in the forum sidebar. Right now I think the best thing they could do with respect to 'Image Enhancement' is to keep someone from there stopping by here a couple of days a week to address questions and comments that come up here about the ASQ.

I guess I'm really ambivalent about the whole ASQ thing. They're a quite typical 'professional society' to which membership means more to some folks than to others. I first started with the then ASQC back in the late 1980's and they immediately turned me off, so to speak, at that time. But - it was 'expected' of 'quality professionals'. I did some time involved - for a few years I even taught some local CQE refresher courses for the local as a volunteer. During the middle 1990's I stopped paying as I saw no value and was seeing that companies were, or appeared to be, more interested in overall experience and 'qualifications' vs. a CQE, for example. I can't remember the reason I joined up again - I think it was a year or two before Kevin Mader started the Senior Member thing. If I remember correctly, I explained that I had been traveling almost exclusively from about 1991 through 2000 and dropped my membership because I wasn't even home enough to read the magazine. They gave me a by because I had been a member for quite a few years when considered as a whole.

Steve Prevette's comparison may be indicative of most organizations in today's world where their relevance to most people matters less and less. I am not even entirely satisfied that there really is anything the ASQ can do to build membership.

As for advertising, this may sound stupid - and in a way it is - but I've talked a few companies out of advertising. It's not that I wouldn't like a few more advertisements and the money they would bring, but I see advertising here as mostly for name recognition. I won't 'pay per click' or any of that stuff because I don't want the accounting hassle of tracking them and I don't want to turn this site into something like the Flashing iSixSigma site. When I go there I sorta have to shrink the window and try to filter out all the falshing and movement of all the advertisement OR take a Dilantin or other anti-convulsive to keep from having seizures (just kidding - It's not THAT bad, but then again..) And I don't want anyone to expect sales because of advertising here. I'm happy Google ads are going OK but even there - I question whether companies really get their moneys worth out of it.

The ASQ actually gets a lot of coverage here without advertising - good and bad.

Just thinking out loud...Actually, I was kidding on the square because the ASQ seemed to have advertised in so many other venues, it seemed to me they ought to go for one with a more targeted market.

I think a straight banner deal versus "click thru" would be fair, since you publish the statistics of page hits and number of unique visitors. After all, print ads don't work on a "per inquiry" basis.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/offtopic-d2.gif Since ASQ seems to have adopted many things antithetical to Deming, even to the point of "management by objective" - I wonder what the numeric goal for new members is? The most probable reason for a completely different website is to track the advertising efficiency.

In this world of energy shortages, perhaps we ought to modify Deming's grave with an electric generator setup so we can get some electricity as he spins in his grave!http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/rolleyes-a1.gif

As for advertising, this may sound stupid - and in a way it is - but I've talked a few companies out of advertising. It's not that I wouldn't like a few more advertisements and the money they would bring, but I see advertising here as mostly for name recognition. I won't 'pay per click' or any of that stuff because I don't want the accounting hassle of tracking them and I don't want to turn this site into something like the Flashing iSixSigma site. When I go there I sorta have to shrink the window and try to filter out all the falshing and movement of all the advertisement OR take a Dilantin or other anti-convulsive to keep from having seizures (just kidding - It's not THAT bad, but then again..) And I don't want anyone to expect sales because of advertising here. I'm happy Google ads are going OK but even there - I question whether companies really get their moneys worth out of it.

The ASQ actually gets a lot of coverage here without advertising - good and bad.

Just thinking out loud...

Dear Marc:

As we all know, nothing comes free, even membership to Marc's Cove. Sooner or later someone must pay for the privilege of being here. That was partly my motivation for what I did here with Views and Replies. I had not seen such statistics posted in any other website. Marc's Cove would not be what it is without your committment. With my warmest regards.

Charmed :)

Dear Marc:

As we all know, nothing comes free, even membership to Marc's Cove. Sooner or later someone must pay for the privilege of being here. That was partly my motivation for what I did here with Views and Replies. I had not seen such statistics posted in any other website. Marc's Cove would not be what it is without your committment. With my warmest regards.

Charmed :)

Are you running for some kind of political office? :horse:

Dear Randy:

I am past that. I now reading the books on Poultry Farming. Did you know about that?

Charmed :) :thanx: :thanx: :thanx:

Poultry farming? Flitter! I'm in West Central Arkansas, you can't "P" off of your back porch around here without hitting a farm growing for Tyson.

What do want to know? Try www.tyson.com . It's a small company, nothin' near what you Yankee boys have, but they have potential.

Since ASQ seems to have adopted many things antithetical to Deming, even to the point of "management by objective" - I wonder what the numeric goal for new members is? The most probable reason for a completely different website is to track the advertising efficiency.

In this world of energy shortages, perhaps we ought to modify Deming's grave with an electric generator setup so we can get some electricity as he spins in his grave!http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/rolleyes-a1.gif

:applause: :lol: Indeed--I agree!

Poultry farming? Flitter! I'm in West Central Arkansas, you can't "P" off of your back porch around here without hitting a farm growing for Tyson.

What do want to know? Try www.tyson.com (http://www.tyson.com/) . It's a small company, nothin' near what you Yankee boys have, but they have potential.Tyson? I think I may have seen that label. Personally, I like the commercials from the nerdy Perdue guy!

I once went through the original Oscar Meyer sausage-making plant back in the 60's. It calls to mind the Will Rogers (or Mark Twain) quote, "people should never watch sausage making or law making - they'll both spoil your appetite."

Tyson? I think I may have seen that label. Personally, I like the commercials from the nerdy Perdue guy!

I once went through the original Oscar Meyer sausage-making plant back in the 60's. It calls to mind the Will Rogers (or Mark Twain) quote, "people should never watch sausage making or law making - they'll both spoil your appetite."

Actually a quick google, I couldn't find Mark Twain or Will Rogers, but:

“Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.”
Otto von Bismark

Although it sure sounds like something either American humorist could have penned.

Actually a quick google, I couldn't find Mark Twain or Will Rogers, but:

“Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.”
Otto von Bismark

Although it sure sounds like something either American humorist could have penned."Penned" or "borrowed" - all three were essentially contemporaries of each other - who knows for sure who was first?

Back to the topic of new membership model:
I'd like to point out that ASQ has apparently heard the pleas. When I visited the Forums today, there were a lot of forums previously hidden from me which I can now read and post to. I don't think it's a victory so much as "doing the right thing." Apparently any member of ASQ can read ALL the forums. I'm interested in learning if non-members can see anything other than two forums when they visit
http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/index.jspa


I would send kudos to the ASQ staffer who finally turned the key in the lock, but they still hide behind the pseudonym, Web Offerings.

Wes,

At the begining there were 2 forums to be seen but I went in now with out logging in and saw nothing.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=84999&postcount=137

is this post now redundant?

Wes,

At the begining there were 2 forums to be seen but I went in now with out logging in and saw nothing.

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=84999&postcount=137

is this post now redundant?If by "redundant" you mean "should I remove this post?" - the answer is NO!

If by redundant, you mean that ASQ has changed its rules, I'd hold off on an answer until we have confirmation it is not a "glitch" - ASQ has been notoriously remiss in providing clear, unambiguous instructions for using the ASQ forums. If "web offerings" does not respond to my post in the Discussion Board Suggestions (http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/forum.jspa?forumID=40) forum by the close of business today (remember their 24-hour pledge?), I'll call Monday and ask for Susan Chapman (if she still works there - haven't seen a post from her or a reply to my emails in over a month) for an explanation. If she's unavailable, I'll keep asking until SOMEONE responds, then I'll report back here AND at ASQ forums.

Just for the heck of it, what happens if a non-member tries to enter the "public" forums at http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/category.jspa?categoryID=5?

If "web offerings" does not respond to my post in the Discussion Board Suggestions (http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/forum.jspa?forumID=40) forum by the close of business today (remember their 24-hour pledge?), I'll call Monday and ask for Susan Chapman (if she still works there - haven't seen a post from her or a reply to my emails in over a month) for an explanation. If she's unavailable, I'll keep asking until SOMEONE responds, then I'll report back here AND at ASQ forums.

Wes,

A sign of a lack of communication, I in Web Offerings was unaware of this change, or a change in policy, therefore I have sent off a question to Susan as well.

As anxious for an answer as you are.

Wes,

A sign of a lack of communication, I in Web Offerings was unaware of this change, or a change in policy, therefore I have sent off a question to Susan as well.

As anxious for an answer as you are.Honesty from Web Offerings!

Two shocks in two days may be too much for an old guy like me. I'm going to carry my cell phone everywhere so I can summon help if a third shock comes along.http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/rolleyes-a1.gif

Just for the heck of it, what happens if a non-member tries to enter the "public" forums at http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/category.jspa?categoryID=5?


Tried the link - tells me I'm in the public discussion boards and lists no threads. Went back to main, and there's still nothing to choose from.
-R.

Tyson? I think I may have seen that label. Personally, I like the commercials from the nerdy Perdue guy!

I once went through the original Oscar Meyer sausage-making plant back in the 60's. It calls to mind the Will Rogers (or Mark Twain) quote, "people should never watch sausage making or law making - they'll both spoil your appetite."


I had always heard this attributed to H. L. Menken as "Anyone who has respect for the law or sausages should not see how either is made."

Tried the link - tells me I'm in the public discussion boards and lists no threads. Went back to main, and there's still nothing to choose from.
-R.Thanks for the effort, Rachel. I'll continue to follow up.

I had always heard this attributed to H. L. Menken as "Anyone who has respect for the law or sausages should not see how either is made."Well, Mencken was contemporary with Will Rogers, who was one year older, but Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) and Bismarck were much older and could have easily been conscious or unconscious influences on Mencken, whose big stuff (AND QUOTABILITY) didn't appear until after both Bismarck and Samuel Clemens were dead.

Thanks for commenting on this offshoot of the main topic of the ASQ Membership model, and how similar the inner workings of ASQ in formulating policy is to "sausage making" (not very appetizing to watch.)

I went to the ASQ Discussion Boards without signing in and got nowhere. Then went back and signed in with member number and passwrod and it went directly to the Discussion topics. Viewed a few, pretty blah, but I did see Wes, and Steve Prevet as a repliers. Mostly about exam fee increases.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Steve took a riskthough.
Can't hold a candle to "THE COVE" ( you know like "Da Bears")

I went to the ASQ Discussion Boards without signing in and got nowhere. Then went back and signed in with member number and passwrod and it went directly to the Discussion topics. Viewed a few, pretty blah, but I did see Wes, and Steve Prevet as a repliers. Mostly about exam fee increases.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Steve took a riskthough.
Can't hold a candle to "THE COVE" ( you know like "Da Bears")

Ralph,
I was surprised that you did not notice my name there. Iam next to Wes in the postings at ASQ Forum with 85 posting in the last 7 weeks. (Wes at 100 !)Our Cove's Bill Pflanz also has submitted many good postings.Jennifer.K, Rob NIX,Hershal also have few postings there.

I agree that there are many Certification related issues discussed in ASQ Forums. I guess you visited the Career Topic where I brought up some suggestions for Certifications.But there are many other thread that discuss variety of topics.

In my opinion,It is too early to start comparing with COVE.Please note ASQ Jive Forum is just 7 weeks old. Members and Non Members have just started visiting regularly. Now with the opening of Division topics, the traffic may increase.

Definitely ASQ Discussion forum is heading in the right direction. :applause:

Regards,
Govind.

Honesty from Web Offerings!

Two shocks in two days may be too much for an old guy like me. I'm going to carry my cell phone everywhere so I can summon help if a third shock comes along.http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/rolleyes-a1.gif

Well, I hate to disappoint, which I know will be the case, but there was an internal quality control error, and an individual, while making changes accidentally left all the forums accessible to every logged in individual. There has been no policy change, therefore you should be able to go back now and only see the forums that you are paying for. There is nothing I can do in this situation but apologize, and hope that someone higher up saw the new traffic to each forum and realizes the importance of an open discussion board.

Just a note of personal frustration, if we are a quality organization built on the premise that the customer is the focus of everything we do, then why hire internal employees to make a difference when all you rely on is external 'Expert' advice to make organizational decisions. Something is just not right here, and it's taken me four years to figure that out as an employee. I'm charged with making a difference but no one gives me the ability to create change on the web. I'm nothing more than a modern day factory worker. Here's what we want you to do, regardless of customer feedback, experience, or metrics, just do it.

I was surprised that you did not notice my name there. Iam next to Wes in the postings at ASQ Forum with 85 posting in the last 7 weeks. (Wes at 100 !)Our Cove's Bill Pflanz also has submitted many good postings.Jennifer.K, Rob NIX,Hershal also have few postings there.

Don't give me too much of a pat on the back. I post here here more often than ASQ since the Cove has better discussions. The main reason for posting at ASQ at all is sympathy for members who try to use it to ask questions and learn something. The Cove still rules.

Bill Pflanz

Well, I hate to disappoint, which I know will be the case, but there was an internal quality control error, and an individual, while making changes accidentally left all the forums accessible to every logged in individual. There has been no policy change, therefore you should be able to go back now and only see the forums that you are paying for. There is nothing I can do in this situation but apologize, and hope that someone higher up saw the new traffic to each forum and realizes the importance of an open discussion board.

Just a note of personal frustration, if we are a quality organization built on the premise that the customer is the focus of everything we do, then why hire internal employees to make a difference when all you rely on is external 'Expert' advice to make organizational decisions. Something is just not right here, and it's taken me four years to figure that out as an employee. I'm charged with making a difference but no one gives me the ability to create change on the web. I'm nothing more than a modern day factory worker. Here's what we want you to do, regardless of customer feedback, experience, or metrics, just do it.Yep. Echoes of my old rant - ASQ top staffers don't change their odor over night, any more than other skunk-like creatures. Is the operating theory that if you smell bad enough, no one will bother you? It may be a revelation to learn lower-level ASQ staffers are treated to the same hubris as ASQ members. As I recall, this was the plight of one ASQ staffer (Edwin Thaves) who tried to help members with the original ASQ Forums. Ultimately, Edwin had his ticket punched and his posts erased from the ASQ forums by top ASQ staffers.

I discovered this latest reversal when following up a post from Govind a short-time ago. I have made some posts on the ASQ Forums expressing my disappointment since then.

Obviously, Howard, this latest news does NOT make the post you referred to as "redundant" does it?

Obviously, Howard, this latest news does NOT make the post you referred to as "redundant" does it?

Obviously you are correct.
:nope:

Obviously you are correct.
:nope:It's one of those times I wish I weren't correct. I really want to belong to a world-class association.

Gramps used to say,
"It's hard to soar with eagles when you flock with turkeys!"

He was talking back then about some of my questionable relationships with a hard-partying crowd in school. I think it's appropos to a lot of situations, don't you?

I admit that what I expected before joining ASQ in 2002 from ASQ is not matched with reality. A close networking, A live Forums, more towards customer orientation and latest and fast updated information were my expectation But ..........
Even after several reminders to ASQ help I could get only 3 (Only Three) issues of QP in this year (in 2004) while August (8th Month) is almost complete, whenever I approach ASQ help regarding QP, one common reply is that it is almost take Four month to deliever QP to India hence please wait!
This all pinch to me more because whatever I spend or spent so far it is from my hard earned money I do not get any reimbursement NOT EVEN ANY INTERNET OR SURFING is free or reimbursed . So in that case I feel should I continue with ASQ membership? But yes Certification is one of the attraction towards ASQ membership.

Manoj Mathur

I admit that what I expected before joining ASQ in 2002 from ASQ is not matched with reality. A close networking, A live Forums, more towards customer orientation and latest and fast updated information were my expectation But ..........
Even after several reminders to ASQ help I could get only 3 (Only Three) issues of QP in this year (in 2004) while August (8th Month) is almost complete, whenever I approach ASQ help regarding QP, one common reply is that it is almost take Four month to deliever QP to India hence please wait!
This all pinch to me more because whatever I spend or spent so far it is from my hard earned money I do not get any reimbursement NOT EVEN ANY INTERNET OR SURFING is free or reimbursed . So in that case I feel should I continue with ASQ membership? But yes Certification is one of the attraction towards ASQ membership.

Manoj MathurI sympathize with your plight, Manoj. Among other ASQ affiliations, I've belonged to the International Section since 1992. I have NEVER received communication from them. I will drop it this year.

I live about an hour drive from ASQ headquarters. I thought I had a lot to complain about when my print edition of Quality Progress rarely arrived before the third week of the month listed on the cover. Four months is obscene. I bet it doesn't take four months for Time or Newsweek or Business Week to get anywhere in the world, let alone a progressive and industrialized country like India.

:topic: Three brothers from India who belong to one of my ASQ sections brag about the great cell phone system in India (no charge for incoming phone calls) which makes me envious every time I look at my own bill.
May I suggest you email Debbie Donaldson direct to see if she can find some way to expedite your print editions of Quality Progress? In all my correspondence with her, she seems like an intelligent, pragmatic person who gets things accomplished when they are within her sphere of influence. Here is her contact information:
Debbie Phillips-Donaldson, CQIA
Editor, Quality Progress
American Society for Quality
600 N. Plankinton Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53203
(800) 248-1946, ext. 7295
ddonaldson@asq.org

In this case, it may be "better to light a candle, rather than curse the darkness"

Even after several reminders to ASQ help I could get only 3 (Only Three) issues of QP in this year (in 2004) while August (8th Month) is almost complete, whenever I approach ASQ help regarding QP, one common reply is that it is almost take Four month to deliever QP to India hence please wait!..........
I have had this situation in the past (back home), receiving Quality Progress very late. I had few missing also. ASQ did mail me the missing issues promptly.

With the current technology and sophistication in the logistics, four months delay is unacceptable. To catch up with the QP on time, while waiting for the hardcopy, you may want to checkout the Quality Progress- Electronic option that is available on the membership page.

If you choose the electronic Option only, you may also save some money (depending on the type of membership).
I admit that what I expected before joining ASQ in 2002 from ASQ is not matched with reality. A close networking, A live Forums, more towards customer orientation and latest and fast updated information were my expectation But ..........
This all pinch to me more because whatever I spend or spent so far it is from my hard earned money I do not get any reimbursement NOT EVEN ANY INTERNET OR SURFING is free or reimbursed . So in that case I feel should I continue with ASQ membership? But yes Certification is one of the attraction towards ASQ membership.

Manoj Mathur

For those who live outside North America, besides a discount in certification fee there is not much they can avail through ASQ Membership. (I agree with Manoj)

Within North America, you join section, division meetings, obtain Networking opportunities, attend section training and refresher courses, volunteer for section activities and many more.

While all the above are applicable to ASQ sections in any part of the world, Iam not sure if they are as active as North American sections.

I understand ASQ-HQ is working on setting up ASQ Costa Rica, ASQ Canada, and ASQ China.

Similarly, if ASQ India and for other developing countries materialize,
Membership fee, Certification fee and section related activities fee should be revised to meet the “affordability” of Quality professionals in those countries. I have posted threads in ASQ discussion forum on the same subject hoping some one higher up will notice this some day.

You may have to patiently wait until then. I will continue to speak up my mind on this subject.

Regards,
Govind.

I admit that what I expected before joining ASQ in 2002 from ASQ is not matched with reality. A close networking, A live Forums, more towards customer orientation and latest and fast updated information were my expectation But ..........
Even after several reminders to ASQ help I could get only 3 (Only Three) issues of QP in this year (in 2004) while August (8th Month) is almost complete, whenever I approach ASQ help regarding QP, one common reply is that it is almost take Four month to deliever QP to India hence please wait!
This all pinch to me more because whatever I spend or spent so far it is from my hard earned money I do not get any reimbursement NOT EVEN ANY INTERNET OR SURFING is free or reimbursed . So in that case I feel should I continue with ASQ membership? But yes Certification is one of the attraction towards ASQ membership.

Manoj Mathur

Where is the International Chapter and Navin Dedhia in all this? I do not know if Navin would be interested in representing our friend at ASQ Milwaukee, he should be - after all he has enjoyed having his International position on his resume for two decades or more.

My experience of the International Chapter, when I lived in UK some years back was that the ASQ welcomes your subscriptions. End.

In regards to the "new membership model" question, I have quite the paradox. Along with ASQ, I also belong to NMRA, the National Model RR Association. Now, there are some interesting parallels:

1. Both organizations are losing members...

Hmmm.......
Steve,

Another model railroading reference :agree1:

I joined the ASQ last year when I was first introduced to the Quality field because it was "an opportunity for me to advance in the company." Thus far I have enjoyed the Quality world. My employer paid the fee so I re-read the ASQ magazine when it comes in the mail after I read the online version :confused: I have enjoyed the local section ASQ meetings but I can attend them without having to be an ASQ member :confused: . As long as my employer pays the ASQ fee, I'll be happy to join.

Now for the model train part... I have not joined the NMRA because the only benefit I could ever get out of it is a magazine which does not interest me and the privilege to attend their annual convention. I have only been able to attend the national train show after the convention (which is open to the general public) for 2 years out of the last 11. I see very little incentive to join the NMRA or re-join the ASQ.

It seems that with forums like The Cove (and train forums like The-Gauge) so widely available on the web, there is little benefit to be gained from a professional organization like ASQ. That is how I perceive it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Jaime

I read these various and numerous posts with great interest. I joined ASQ 8 years ago, but did not avail myself of the forums there until about 2 years ago, when I decided to join the ranks of the consultants out there. I recall being quite surprised that the forums were not utilized. Then I got wind of the Cove, and I understood why the ASQ forums are not utilized as much. It really is unfortunate that the card-carrying ASQ members do not have more impact on the business of their professional group.

I live and work in the same town as ASQ headquarters (and RAB). I can tell you that they have a state-of-the-art headquarters, that opened within the last two years! I cannot comment regarding the increase in dues with the most likely increase in costs to keep up the headquarters. If you are able to get your company to pay for a class at the Milwaukee headquarters, be sure to take the offer! It is an experience not to miss. :agree1:

I am all for finding a way to improve the relationship of members with ASQ. Perhaps a new thread??

I live and work in the same town as ASQ headquarters (and RAB). I can tell you that they have a state-of-the-art headquarters, that opened within the last two years! I cannot comment regarding the increase in dues with the most likely increase in costs to keep up the headquarters. If you are able to get your company to pay for a class at the Milwaukee headquarters, be sure to take the offer! It is an experience not to miss.
Over the course of many years I have become very wary when an organization starts to get a state of the art building as it reminds me of the warnings given by C Northcote Parkinson in his famous book, "Parkinson's Law or The Pursuit of Progress."

In his chapter, "Plans and Plants he mischeviously observes, "It is now known that a perfection of planned layout is achieved only by institutions on the point of collapse".
Some might like to re-read Parkinson as he does effectively (almost satirically) deal with bureaucracies.

But, the feedback (anecdotal, admittedly) I get leads me to think the ASQ (sadly) is more like Dicken's "Circumlocution office".

I have no desire to see the ASQ, the IQA or any other national body collapse. But, I do think they are deserving of rescuing.

[deleted quote by request]
What a rotten shame one of our Cove visitors continually stirs manure because he likes the stink! The miscreant is a joke in our industry, but is clueless and continues to act as if he is the reigning expert on everything to do with Quality. When I was in college, one of my professors (a survivor of Goebels and Hitler) extracted a promise from all his students:
"When you see some one or some institution practicing the "Big Lie" - type propaganda, you must speak out against it. The Big Lie can only exist in a vacuum. It cannot exist in a strong atmosphere of Truth!"

Thus said, I tell you all that I believe the Truth to be that anyone who claims an organization can achieve ISO Registration within 40 days by following his program is guilty of the Big Lie!It seems as if you've experienced an epiphany, Chad! Welcome to the Cove!http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/bigwave-d2.gif

When I was a schoolboy, Eisenhower (Ike) was President of the United States. He had a favorite story from WWII which my dad often repeated and I now find myself using in various presentations around the country.

When asked why he thought it important to be Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces rather than one of the generals who would contribute to a "consensus of opinion," Ike reached down and undid a shoelace and laid it on the table.


"Look here," he said. "If I try to push the string from the middle or the end, it doesn't go in the direction I want. If I pull it from one end, it goes anywhere I need it to go. War needs a leader who will pull the train in the direction it needs to go!"

The moral of the story: You can't lead from the middle of the pack!

Official Notice Given To ASQ and to Cove Members in Regards to User ASQ_Web_Offerings_CN:

I regret to inform you that I have accepted a position with Kenosha Unified School District as their Web Specialist. In this role I will facilitate, design, develop, maintain, train, and lead the school district in taking better advantage of the web as a vehicle of communication. This is a wonderful opportunity for me to be a key decision maker to help create groundwork for other levels of education to follow. The opportunity is endless, a perfect fit for the type of employee that I’ve become, and the type of opportunity I desire.

I believe another major contributor to my decision was the proximity of this position to my home. Being that Kenosha Unified School District is a mere 9 miles from my home makes this opportunity a great job option.

I’m very excited for this new chapter in my career and very thankful for the experience and gratitude ASQ has offered me. I leave ASQ with a wealth of knowledge, and an eye on Quality. I’m excited to utilize some of the skills that I have gained here in regards to policy and process.

Due to the nature of the position and the time of year, the school district has requested my services as soon as possible. In order to make this transition a smooth one, I have requested at least one week of notice to ASQ. Therefore, my official last day at ASQ will be Friday September 10, 2004. I apologize for the short notice, and hope that this transition will be a smooth one. I will make myself available for any assistance necessary over this time period.

I have truly enjoyed my time at ASQ; it has been a journey that has helped me grow exponentially as an individual and as an employee. I look forward to bringing quality to the education system in Kenosha, and many of the techniques and team building skills that I’ve learned over the past three and a half years with ASQ.

Sincerely,

Chad Niemuth

I wish you the best of luck and good fortune. Your input here has been, and will remain, valuable.

I will add I noticed the edited posts by several folks in this thread. I was very disappointed that someone used your postings here to discredit you with the ASQ. Low down are the best words I can think of to describe such actions and that person, but since this is a public forum it's to be expected. The ASQ has never been my idea of an organization tolerant of dissent or criticism so I'm betting your new position elsewhere will work out better for you.

The original post was:

ASQ Releases New Membership Model - Will it make a difference?

It made a difference to me.

I dropped my membership.

Carl-

The original post was:

ASQ Releases New Membership Model - Will it make a difference?

It made a difference to me.

I dropped my membership.

Carl-

It may be a revelation to learn lower-level ASQ staffers are treated to the same hubris as ASQ members. As I recall, this was the plight of one ASQ staffer (Edwin Thaves) who tried to help members with the original ASQ Forums. Ultimately, Edwin had his ticket punched and his posts erased from the ASQ forums by top ASQ staffers.

Thank you for your kind words. I am that Edwin Thaves you spoke of and whom many of you knew from the discussion forums on ASQNet.

I worked at ASQ from July 1997 until August 2003 and liked to consider myself a strong advocate for the needs of members. I had good company at ASQ--my colleagues and I in the Membership Services department shared a passion for the mission of ASQ and for what the organization could become.

ASQ began to systematically dismantle the the Membership Services department starting in May 2003 with the termination of Shiela Zielinski, Director, Membership. Many ASQ staff members believed that the abrupt terminations of Sheila, Dan Eagen (Manager, Human Resources) and Dick Sandretti (Director, Public Relations) were the result of those staff members expressing concern about a restructuring plan that had been initiated. In the months that followed, membership services staff members were transferred out of department or terminated. In hindsight, I believe that ASQ directors made the membership directorate the scapegoat for declining membership and fiscal problems.

It has been over a year since my employment with ASQ was terminated. I have been silent about what happened inside ASQ during my tenure. I chose not to respond to allegations made by ASQ staff that I announced launch dates for new discussion boards without anyone's knowledge. I have not commented on the lack of leadership and misjudgments made by the senior management team of ASQ. I have decided to end my silence.

I hope to set the record straight about what happened at ASQ. My hope is that ASQ members raise concerns, seek answers and take back control of the organization from a senior management team that is leading the organization in the wrong direction.

I would certainly be fascinated to hear your side of the story after this period of time. I hope that this won't turn into "ASQ bashing", but as an ASQ member (and volunteer and now a ASQ Discussion Board Moderator) I hope we can learn from our past and try to see what can be done to be a positive influence on ASQ.

I can't express in words just HOW bummed I am to be accurate in my insight into the inner workings of ASQ.

In my long career, I have been a member of numerous nonprofit business and professional and social associations and organizations, including fraternal organizations, charities, and churches. In some of them, I was fortunate enough to be elected to high ranking offices by my peers.

Almost without fail, I can tell you that when an organization grows beyond a certain number of members or extends over a large geographic area, it is forced to hire staff members to take care of the "infrastructure" tasks to maintain the organization. This extends to caretakers and maintenance folk for buildings and meeting halls and office staff to care for records and publications.

Ultimately, the organization grows to a point where it hires an "executive director" who proceeds to build and maintain a bureaucracy. If the members cede control to the executive director and his burgeoning bureaucracy, the organization soon loses its original focus and turns instead to "growth at any cost."

The irony is that the "growth at any cost" policies soon discourage the very members needed to sustain the organization and the organization does one of two things:

Fades away due to attrition of members and subsequent loss of revenue
or
Transforms into something unrecognizable compared to the original premise.
Folks thus disaffected by the transformation have become such minority voices, they have no practical choice except to go along or quit.

One bright spot always remains: the individual chapters of an organization (individual church congregations, ASQ Sections, etc.) remain vibrant and active for a period after the national or international parent goes into decline.

The question remains - are these possible seeds for new growth within the parent? or will, they, too, soon die without nourishment from the parent?

Every case is different and always affected by the determination and skill of individuals to lead a charge for change.

Pretty philosophical, I know, but no surprise, since I've been on this soapbox for several years, so no apologies, either.

Any service institution or organization relies for its living on the discretionary expenditure of its patrons. In the case of professional bodies, this means the members. If there are no members, the institution becomes a shop selling, perhaps, training course, conferences and books. But, if the members of the associated profession do not contribute to its body of knowledge and experience, the shop soon lacks credibility. And, they may even find a better shop to buy the products and services they seek.

No individual and no organization is bigger than its profession. In the case of Christianity, a disaffected number of church members decided to protest: they became "protestants. Their faith was undiminished, but they formed a new church.

Indeed, the quality movement/ profession will not fade away: moreover, I believe it has a bright future. Shops, of course, can fade from glory days. (As an example, WalMart replaced Woolworth in the Dow 30 index. Woolworth is now "Footlocker", I understand, a shadow of its former self.)

Those wishing to prosper from it by offering a service to the professionals within need to respond to the voice of the professional whose discretionary expenditure it wishes to attract. Does not the quality movement calls it "the voice of the customer"? But, in a professional institution, the members are not simply "customers": indeed it seems a little terse and disrespectful to dubb them as such. They provide the feedstuff of knowledge and credibility that makes that institution respected. They also can steer newbies, professional colleagues, employers and clients to another store, if they wish. And, of course, in a global market place, the professional can assemble wherever they wish - even in cyberspace.

Brand names are hard to build, but easy to destroy. And it is always those employed by the brand that are the destroyers.

ASQ began to systematically dismantle the the Membership Services department starting in May 2003 with the termination of Shiela Zielinski, Director, Membership. Many ASQ staff members believed that the abrupt terminations of Sheila, Dan Eagen (Manager, Human Resources) and Dick Sandretti (Director, Public Relations) were the result of those staff members expressing concern about a restructuring plan that had been initiated.
Aaaahhhh! I wondered what had happened to at least two of those people. They were there and then :magic: they were gone ...

Brand names are hard to build, but easy to destroy. And it is always those employed by the brand that are the destroyers.When I was a boy, the point of envy in any neighborhood was to be the owner of a Schwinn bicycle, made in Chicago. As my children were growing up in the 70's, I counted on the strength of a great brand and bought them Schwinns, too. Alas, the next generation of the Schwinn family took over control of the company and in less than 10 years, destroyed a once proud company.

There's a recent book out which mentions the debacle. I am ordering the book. I found the information and brief excerpt (fair use) which induced me to buy it at the url cited. Once I've read the book, I'll give a review. Anyone familiar with it? The one excerpt about protective mechanisms certainly stirs a lot of recognition of organizations I know today.

Here's a book I'm going to order and read. Most of the reviews at Amazon were positive - one was especially negative. I decided I need to see for myself.

I found these excerpts at
http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/faculty/syd.finkelstein/book.html
Why Smart Executives Fail
By Sydney Finkelstein
Published by Portfolio (Penguin Putnam)
June 2003
Hardback, 288 pages
ISBN: 1-59184-010-4
$26.95 ($40.00 CAN)
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by Sydney Finkelstein (Paperback )
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Book Excerpt:
Early Warning Signs for Failure
Here's a surprise. Want to know one of the best generic warning signs you can look for? How about success, lots of it! Leaving aside the unfortunately reality that many of the companies we studied were quite successful before the really bad stuff happened—Rubbermaid, Motorola, Wang Labs, Sony, Conseco, Johnson & Johnson, Snow Brand Milk, LTCM, Barneys, the list goes on—there are several reasons why we should be on the alert.

First, the zombie businesses of Chapter 7 were uniformly successful at one time, but fell into a wide swath of delusional attitudes that were an outgrowth of that success.

Second, companies that are successful in their marketplace act as an advertisement for others to enter the same arena. Lacking powerful barriers to entry, new companies will take some share away from incumbents.

Third, success breeds arrogance. Even a company as powerful as Microsoft was not immune to the perils of success, and probably should count itself lucky that the antitrust suit ended up where it did.

Fourth, it's easy to let our guard down when we are awash in profits. It's only natural; "there is a common failing of mankind, never to anticipate a storm when the sea is calm."

Finally, success creates its own momentum that in the scheme of things is remarkably difficult to maintain. One of the reasons WorldCom turned to fraudulent accounting was because that was the only way they could keep the great numbers up; the regular course of business was no longer doing it.

The extreme case of a successful company that loses all semblance of constraint and responsibility to standard norms of business conduct may well be Adelphia. When we think of Adelphia, we think of the classic Mel Brooks movie, Blazing Saddles. There's a scene in that film when everyone converges on this one town where the saloon, the stores, the bank, and even the sheriff share the same name—Johnson. The town is totally dominated by this one man and his family, and while Mel Brooks used the name Johnson, in reality the name was Rigas. John Rigas and his family were the kings of the town of Coudersport, PA. Most of the people in town worked for Adelphia, and Adelphia and the Rigas family owned most of the town. The real estate, the restaurant, the movie theatre, the golf course—all part of the family. And perhaps the defining principle of the company, and the family, was that you took care of your own. So, John's wife, Doris, decorated the Adelphia buildings with $12.4 million in furniture from a Rigas family business; son in law Peter Venetis ran a venture capital fund with company money; when the company needed a vehicle, they bought it from the family car dealership; snow removal, lawn mowing, maintenance—that's right—all from family-run businesses. The Rigas family created Adelphia—the word itself means "brothers" in Greek—as an island unto itself, but when they ventured to the outside world in search of capital, and proceeded to abuse that capital, the game was up.

Book Excerpt:
Diagnostic on Protective MechanismsAre any of these statements an accurate depiction of the central attitudes prevalent in your company? If so, the risk of becoming a zombie business is high.

We seldom appoint someone to advocate for the strategies and technologies introduced by competitors.
We seldom have anyone responsible for identifying mistakes that competitors make, and publicizing the appropriate lessons for our company.
Top-level executives seldom interact with customers and front-line employees.
We seldom encourage criticism of the "way we've always done it."
We seldom publicize our mistakes and what we have learned from them.

I too have allowed my ASQ to expire. It seems ASQ (In my opinion) has lost its first love, that of quality. Perhaps it was that they are trying to be too much for too many people. It appears to me that they have focused on ASQ, the organization. Just my opinion, folks.

Let me ask this:

With the exception of executives who may also be ASQ members, does the typical business executive:

have any awareness ASQ exists?
have any respect for ASQ members or certification holders as professionals akin to MBAs or graduate engineers in other fields?
routinely include Quality folk in strategy meetings?
consider Quality folk for "line officer" status versus "staff" status?
willingly pay for additional Quality training (other than 6 Sigma)?
If the answer to most of these is "no," it is plain to see ASQ has not been serving its members by effective targeting of publicity toward executives.

A thread in the ASQ Forums is covering the perception that health care executives for the most part ignore any candidates for Quality positions unless they are first and foremost licensed health care professionals (RNs and MDs) - i.e. the implication being "quality training is nice to have as an addition, but we'd rather do business the same old way."
What is your impression of how business executives perceive ASQ members?

Let me ask this:

With the exception of executives who may also be ASQ members, does the typical business executive:

have any awareness ASQ exists?
have any respect for ASQ members or certification holders as professionals akin to MBAs or graduate engineers in other fields?
routinely include Quality folk in strategy meetings?
consider Quality folk for "line officer" status versus "staff" status?
willingly pay for additional Quality training (other than 6 Sigma)?
If the answer to most of these is "no," it is plain to see ASQ has not been serving its members by effective targeting of publicity toward executives.

A thread in the ASQ Forums is covering the perception that health care executives for the most part ignore any candidates for Quality positions unless they are first and foremost licensed health care professionals (RNs and MDs) - i.e. the implication being "quality training is nice to have as an addition, but we'd rather do business the same old way."
What is your impression of how business executives perceive ASQ members?

I may be playing a little devil's advocate here, but here are some thoughts and probing questions:

1. From an ASQ perspective, who cares what the business executive think? If ASQ is advancing the knowledge and capabilities of its members, and the members then become more valuable to the executives, then we have accomplished something. Something more than millions of dollars of advertising will get the quality professional.

2. I have been reading "Ackoff's Best", and interesting book from an Operations Research perspective. Ackoff (an Ops Researcher himself) thinks the OR profession is dead because it became more inward looking, too tool oriented, and no perspective on making a positive impact on the employing corporations.

3. What if the QA professional doesn't wanna be "line" management?

4. Employers are getting less and less likely to pay for training anyway. And the days of employers paying for your membership and your annual AQC convention and to be on boards are over.

5. I'm not all that negative on the medical community. If I up and decided I wanted to be a QA professional at an electronics plant, and I have no background in electronics, do you think I would have a chance of being hired? But I do know of one person who did break into the medical field (he currently works at the Western Institutional Review Board) on a quality background.

6. My business executives view me pretty positively, and I do make it known I am a ASQ member and CQE.

7. By the way, I just discovered the company changed my job title from quality engineer to safety engineer, so I don't think I can talk to you guys anymore :D

7. By the way, I just discovered the company changed my job title from quality engineer to safety engineer, so I don't think I can talk to you guys anymore

Didn't Randy say he is also now in the "safety" field? Perhaps you two should get together and start your own discussion. :notme:

If "safety" is your gig, now, will you have to resign "Ask a Professional" moderator duties?:rolleyes:


My point being that without recognition from top executives at organizations of the existence and/or value of ASQ and its training (assuming there IS value), what is the value to an ASQ member to maintain membership? Especially consider the vast majority of members who for one reason or another are NOT active in their local Sections.

Without the value added of employer recognition (and subsidy of ASQ fees), membership in ASQ is just an expensive ego trip for guys who get a thrill out of hanging a membership certificate on the wall. In my town, membership in the local JayCees is more fun because they get to run the haunted house at Hallowe'en. (plus the meetings are more frequent and closer to home or work.) I know a lot more executives who are aware of the existence of the JayCees than of ASQ.


I don't subscribe to the "rose by any other name" theory because a licensed and registered design engineer sure commands more respect and pay than a talented draftsman. If "Certified Quality Engineer" and "Quality Assurance Inspector" are not differentiated in an employer's eyes, how can we expect a differentiation in pay to justify taking the training to become certified?

7. By the way, I just discovered the company changed my job title from quality engineer to safety engineer, so I don't think I can talk to you guys anymore
__________________
Steve Prevette
"A Passionate Statistician"
Fluor Hanford
City University
ASQ Certified Quality Engineer

This must be a trend! When I hired in at JRB I was simply a QAE but paid on and hourly basis. Then they transferred me to salary status and although I am reknowned throughout the company as the QA Guy, my official title is Manufacturing Engineer. My counterpart in Iowa is officially an Industrial Engineer. It seems that there is a phobia about any job description that begins with Quality.
We are hoping that the new owners are not as shy! :biglaugh:

This must be a trend! When I hired in at JRB I was simply a QAE but paid on and hourly basis. Then they transferred me to salary status and although I am reknowned throughout the company as the QA Guy, my official title is Manufacturing Engineer. My counterpart in Iowa is officially an Industrial Engineer. It seems that there is a phobia about any job description that begins with Quality.

Might make an interesting survey for the Cove - how many folks actually work in a QA department, and/or have QA in the job title? I've documented before that I have never worked in a QA department, but the company did give me the QA Engineer title because they had no idea what else to call me. Previous to that I was a "Civil Engineer" because that was what my undergraduate degree is. I think the current logic is because I work in Occupational Safety and Health, I am a "Safety Engineer". But I think I can lay claim to I have done at least one task for every major department in the company over the past year.

Hey Steve....do you know Lonnie McDaniel there at Hanford?

And yes...I am somewhat in the safety field :rolleyes:

Hey Steve....do you know Lonnie McDaniel there at Hanford?

And yes...I am somewhat in the safety field :rolleyes:

Yes, I knew Lon when he was here with Dyncorp. He hasn't been at Hanford for a few years now though.

Might make an interesting survey for the Cove - how many folks actually work in a QA department, and/or have QA in the job title? I've documented before that I have never worked in a QA department, but the company did give me the QA Engineer title because they had no idea what else to call me. Previous to that I was a "Civil Engineer" because that was what my undergraduate degree is. I think the current logic is because I work in Occupational Safety and Health, I am a "Safety Engineer". But I think I can lay claim to I have done at least one task for every major department in the company over the past year.

Great idea Steve! Can you set this up on a seperate thread? I would be very interested in the results. :agree1:

Great idea Steve! Can you set this up on a seperate thread? I would be very interested in the results. :agree1:

Done. I put two polls in the Coffee Table area.

Done. I put two polls in the Coffee Table area.
Thanks Steve, just did vote in both of them! :thanx:

Yes, I knew Lon when he was here with Dyncorp. He hasn't been at Hanford for a few years now though.

Lon kinda helped me get started with EHS when he was with Dyncorp at Ft Irwin and I was with Lockheed...

When I was a boy, the point of envy in any neighborhood was to be the owner of a Schwinn bicycle, made in Chicago. As my children were growing up in the 70's, I counted on the strength of a great brand and bought them Schwinns, too. Alas, the next generation of the Schwinn family took over control of the company and in less than 10 years, destroyed a once proud company.

There's a recent book out which mentions the debacle. I am ordering the book. I found the information and brief excerpt (fair use) which induced me to buy it at the url cited. Once I've read the book, I'll give a review. Anyone familiar with it? The one excerpt about protective mechanisms certainly stirs a lot of recognition of organizations I know today.

Why Smart Executives Fail: What you can Learn From Their Mistakes
Book Excerpt:
Early Warning Signs for Failure
Here's a surprise. Want to know one of the best generic warning signs you can look for? How about success, lots of it! Leaving aside the unfortunately reality that many of the companies we studied were quite successful before the really bad stuff happened—Rubbermaid, Motorola, Wang Labs, Sony, Conseco, Johnson & Johnson, Snow Brand Milk, LTCM, Barneys, the list goes on—there are several reasons why we should be on the alert.
Well, I got this book late this afternoon and I want to report that, for me, it is a real "page turner." I'm only about halfway through the book so far, but what strikes me most is how some of my own theories about the SNAFUs at companies seems to be confirmed.

When the author talks about the "hype" and hubris which often precede a company's fall from grace, I recall the story of Executive Life Insurance (not in his book) and a massive fraud it created (recently, some more big time bankers who abetted the fraud paid fines and penalties http://www.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel03/credit121803.htm)

About 2 years before the fraud was discovered, some of my acquaintances in the investment banking community "tipped" me that Executive Life was a big player I should cultivate to obtain investment money.

When I talked to one of their C-level execs (maybe it was even Carr, himself - I don't remember), he tried to convince me (a comparative nobody) that their company was selling more insurance than Metropolitan and Prudential combined because they "knew how to market insurance."

Whatever else I may have felt, I knew that the small army of dedicated Metropolitan and Prudential salesmen were not dummies, nor were the other insurance companies and their executives completely stupid. If there was an insurance product that made sense, they'd have a competing product in a heartbeat.

I called my tipsters and said, "Something doesn't make sense. I called this guy to tap him for investment funds and he spent 90% of the time on the phone telling me how great his company was and yet didn't try to sell me a policy. Gramps always told me, 'If something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't.' There's no way in my mind that these guys can be outselling Met and Pru salesmen 10 to 1 the way this guy claims. Besides, this jerk expected junk bond-type interest from my solid deals."

It subsequently turned out Executive Life was committing two frauds:

one against real policy holders who were promised unrealistic returns on their money which was invested in junk bonds and a kind of Ponzi scheme;
the other against reinsurance companies who bought fraudulent policies which corrupt executives created at drunken "signing parties" where they signed names taken from phone books to policies they resold to the reinsurers.
The third fraud was by a foreign bank (Lyonnais) after the government regulators seized Executive Life.

Similarly to Enron and World Com, "savvy" experts touted the glory of Executive Life almost up to the day it collapsed and filed bankruptcy. (the pity is that the time table may be too long to take advantage of short-selling the stock of company you suspect of fraud)