With the increase in outsourcing, many of our Quality professionals may opt to take Expat position in places like China, Rest of Asia and other countries. Since we have many international members in this forum, I thought,it would be good idea to exchange some thoughts.

What are the factors that need to be considered before taking up Expat positions?
I would say with my experience in the past-Expat positions 3 organizations..
Employment Conditions,
Employer reputation,
specific benefits not obviously known to foreigners until they land on a job,
Negotiations in USD,
language issues,
food Choice (religious reason) availability,
and many more.

I know many (including myself) who have regretted for taking an Expat position without fully knowing the constraints.
Even if you have not taken position abroad, what would you consider before taking up any?
Let us use this thread to “brain dump” all you know about taking Expat positions. Someday this will be useful to us.

Thanks,
Govind.

It seems that you may have an intention to work abroad. As a Chinese, i encourage you to work in China. Maybe the modern China is quite different from that old imagine in your eyes.

If you want to know about China, I would like to give you some good ideas.

Mr. Govind,

It is really intresting to note all you told. Can you please eloberate more.

And Baubin please tell us How China is reacting and accepting Quality Systems. Is it only for piece of paper or is it carry lot of meaning.What about ISO 14001 there?

Although I didn’t cross the pond to follow a job, naturally, once we settled in Canada, I wanted to work and it made sense to look for a job in “what I do”!
Luckily the world of automotive manufacturing is fairly global in its skill and experience requirements so my personal skills were quickly recognised, credited and I landed myself a job that I am fairly happy with.

However, I do have a list of things to consider:
1) Qualifications…they probably mean jack in another country so finding out about the equivalent in the land you hope to be in would help. I had to get my degree transcribed for the Canadian government so I now have a grade point average aswell as a UK degree classification.
2) Culture is a big thing. You need to know what it acceptable and what isnt. Obviously you will be given some leeway for being new but it makes a good impression if you know what the norm is.
3) Benefits. Do you get any, especially health. What service do you get without having benefits from an employer.
4) Weather vs location vs pay vs employer expectations. If you work somewhere with extreme weather, it normally costs more to deal with the conditions and it may have an effect on your ability to get to work. I am not looking forward to my first winter in Canada with a job…..dark all the time, cold, snow to shovel constantly, dog to walk regardless of weather as you have to get to work….it’ll be interesting that’s for sure. :confused:

I cant think of any other BIG things just now although I do want to just comment on cultural differences again.
If you consider that I have moved from the UK to Canada, two countries very closely linked and both in the Caucasian Western world, you would imagine (initially) that the differences in lifestyle and culture would be minimal.
However, its quite amazing how different the two countries are and when you are thousands of miles from home, small things can be big issues.
You have to be prepared to deal with all these changes aswell as the stresses that a new job brings. If you can find an employer who understands some of these issues (maybe someone else is ex-pat in the company too?), it will be of benefit to you.
:yes:

I find the idea interesting and risky. a lot of different question/concerns come to mind.
Who pays/arranges for the interview?
What language abilities /cultural experiences are normally required?
Who pays for relocation – which I must imagine would be thousands USD, for a small family?
How are issues of learning a new language resolved? Is it normal to begin an a new position with little skill in the native language OR is the person expected to become fluent soon after he begins the new position?
How many jobs are truly over there (given the expense of moving)?
How do you translate an American standard of living to an asian economy?

I’ve often heard it said that Americans earn enormous amounts of money relative to the global average. Does a quality position abroad normally bring a similar standard of living- or does an ‘expat’ have to readjust his expectations for a different standard of community services.

Lastly, why would a company bring over an American, whom has such high standards for pay when they could train and pay a local a fraction of the cost?

Perhaps this last rational, means you must be an exceptionally competent worker (experience / management) to be considered for an expat position?

This thread is very interesting- I hope to we can get recruiters, expats, and locals to comment.
Consider me an American with his whole career in front of him, asking – if our positions move to china/other growing industrial countries; what would it take to follow them?

Jay

PS. If you don’t know, outsourcing manufacturing jobs has become a intense issue in American politics. Many Americans seem to fear that asian countries will eventually dominate in manufacturing jobs – and that American manufacturing jobs will be sparse and difficult to get. As more Americans worry, I’d imagine that interest in becoming an expat will grow. To those that encourage Americans to consider moving questions of standard of living and the money to move will dominate.

Mr. Govind,

It is really intresting to note all you told. Can you please eloberate more.

And Baubin please tell us How China is reacting and accepting Quality Systems. Is it only for piece of paper or is it carry lot of meaning.What about ISO 14001 there?
Now, due to the request from customers, more and more small & medium size companies are intending to be certified by the third party organization. Howerver, some of them are just for a piece of paper, others do want to manage the company well visa the QMS.

For the big state owned and overseas companies, they surely emphasize the effectiveness of the QMS.

THe importance of ISO14001 is only recognized by the government and big companies or certain companies in special field, i.g. the chemical. Now in most of the Cinese economic developing zones, it will become the requirement by the government that should be done in the next 2-3 years.

By the way, i am working in a Japanese company, we run a very effective QMS.

It seems that you may have an intention to work abroad. As a Chinese, i encourage you to work in China. Maybe the modern China is quite different from that old imagine in your eyes.

If you want to know about China, I would like to give you some good ideas.

Baubin,
Thanks for the invitation to come and work in China. I started the thread for the benefit of anyone who opts to take any expat position abroad. China is fact developing. I visited last year for business purpose. Shangai and Shenzhen has lots of industries and local Chinese mentioned that the Job opportunities are plenty.

Please provide ideas to all of us in the sense, what we need to know before taking up a job in China? See my 1st posting. I have list of items that I think we should know. Any more? Any different?

Govind.

Mr. Govind, It is really intresting to note all you told. Can you please eloberate more.


Manoj,
Many of us take up jobs overseas mainly because the salary and benefits are attractive. Once we land up there, we see issues that will make us regret for the decision.
Example: Employers make you work for several hours/day and expect on call 24X7, Not sincere in honouring the contractual commitments, Employers not being ethical in their business, Highly qualified spouse cannot work because that government will not issue a Work visa to spouse, No international school for kids, etc and many more.

These are experiences of many people, who I happen to meet during business.

I just want to open up the conversations so that many professionals who plan to take jobs consider various factors and not just the attractive packages.

Govind.

...outsourcing manufacturing jobs has become a intense issue in American politics. Many Americans seem to fear that asian countries will eventually dominate in manufacturing jobs – and that American manufacturing jobs will be sparse and difficult to get. As more Americans worry, I’d imagine that interest in becoming an expat will grow. To those that encourage Americans to consider moving questions of standard of living and the money to move will dominate.
Jay, Outsourcing is inevitable.In the next 10 to 15 years we will all learn to live with this fact and survive. See all my reply in blue font below each question listed above..

I find the idea interesting and risky. a lot of different question/concerns come to mind...................
................This thread is very interesting- I hope to we can get recruiters, expats, and locals to comment.................

Jay….your questions are great and they remind me of some of the issues we have been through that had started to fade into the past!
Perhaps a point to note - if you are in a position whereby you want or have to emigrate, a lot of the issues just become a fact of life. You cannot expect to move to another country without sacrificing some things. Perhaps (without insulting anyone :truce: ) this is a hard concept for an American as the great country of the US had been blessed with too much of everything for so long.

Also, some people want to move to developing countries to be part of that new, exciting growth.

As for abilities, you will find that by simply being a) a foreigner and b) an immigrant (who needs to make his life succeed in order to remain in the country), companies will favour you.
Of course they will have questions about how you will adjust and will you stick it out and I imagine that’s why contract exist so that companies font lose out (if they pay for relocation etc).

Personally, coming from the UK to Canada gave me an advantage as the systems we are working to in the UK are slightly more advanced or been in use for longer (TS, lean, environmental). Perhaps this is one reason why a company would pay more for a “yank” than a local….the experience, knowing the pitfalls and therefore being more efficient and effective in a shorter space of time.

Anyway, as you also rightly said, lets hope recruiters and employee have a stab at this thread…..it certainly is a BIG issue in the world and its something that a lot of people think about at some time in their life.
:thanx:

Engjane,
I agree with your points.
Immigration requires much more thinking than accepting jobs abroad. I have been on both sides. When you immigrate, the country law protects you and you are entitled for almost everything a citizen would obtain from the government. When you immigrate, you would think long-term and do a lot of planning.

On the other hand, while accepting jobs abroad, people do not think long term and time is usually very limited to make such a decision. Hence, people tend to make mistakes in their decisions. Employers tend to exploit, as many laws within that country may not protect a person in Work visa.

Not all jobs abroad end up with bad experience. But careful evaluation and trade-off is required before this major decision.
Govind.

Poll added by request of engjane.

:thanx: Poll added by request of engjane.

Apparently I have to add words in my message too..!?!

I must qualify my vote by saying that "price" doesn't have to be monetary for me. Let's just say, if the circumstances were right I would certainly consider working in another land.

If you find a Multi National company to hire you, with legal contracts internationally undisputable, salary negotiated in USD, net saving at least twice more as home ground, minimum contract of 5 years, atleast one expense paid for family visit/year, medical fully covered, safe to work, then it is a smart move.

My 2 cents..
Govind.

If you find a Multi National company to hire you, with legal contracts internationally undisputable, salary negotiated in USD, net saving at least twice more as home ground, minimum contract of 5 years, atleast one expense paid for family visit/year, medical fully covered, safe to work, then it is a smart move.

My 2 cents..
Govind.

and a fairy godmother?! :biglaugh:

I emigrated about 25 years ago.
It was not career oriented and I am sure that if I had stayed in England I would never have got to work in Quality management.

and a fairy godmother?! :biglaugh:

does this imply these terms are sparse or difficult no matter how qualified you are? Does good terms turn out to be more an issue of luck, good judgement, or qualifications (or a combination of the three)?

jay

does this imply these terms are sparse or difficult no matter how qualified you are? Does good terms turn out to be more an issue of luck, good judgement, or qualifications (or a combination of the three)?

jay
Not at all... I think Govind was just stating the circumstances under which he would take a job abroad again.
I would imagine, not having taken a job in such a land, that taking jobs in developing countries is a little different to say Western Europe, North America or Australia.
You would demand more of your benefits to compensate for perhaps the more difficult way of life.

Sometimes the length of contract is determined by working visas or immigration laws. Sometimes you may need extra benefits from your employer because you are not eligible for them under the country's government and it sure makes sense to add in time for a trip home once a year!
These are all things you need to try and establish before making a move.

We are fortunate that the step down we took when we moved to Canada (in terms of salary and to a small extent, career) has been compensated by the fact that our quality of life is so much higher. We're enjoying spending time enjoying Canada together. :o

I would like to think that, if the employer is realistic, then you would be an attractive proposition to them, certainly on a par with a native, if not a little better due to the global experiences you bring.

I was simply being a little sarcastic (and I apologise) in reply to Govind's t's & c's listed.
I guess I am lucky to not have such needs at this time in my life (and thats exactly why it was the right time for us to move to a new land)

Engjane,
I know you meant some humour. :) No offence taken.

Those suggestions are intended to anyone who plan to take jobs abroad from North America. Those are even specific points to consider while taking a job (not emigrating) in Greater China, South East Asia and Middle East.

All those suggestions are “extract” of lessons learned from various professionals who have worked in that region.

I repeat, Not all jobs abroad end up with bad experience. However, careful evaluation and trade-off is required before this major decision.

Govind.

If you find a Multi National company to hire you, ... salary negotiated in USD, net saving at least twice more as home ground, ...
Govind.

Didn't really understand what you meant by twice home gound. Say my normal salary in the US is 40k, which is nice professional paycheck-- are you saying I ought to earn 80k abroad?

Surely, it would be a rare employer to offer this. If you are paid even the full 40k USD, doesn't that make you a somewhat wealthy man in the 2nd/3rd world?? That said, financial compensation IS important. I am sure I would need an increase in pay.

Didn't really understand what you meant by twice home gound. Say my normal salary in the US is 40k, which is nice professional paycheck-- are you saying I ought to earn 80k abroad?

Surely, it would be a rare employer to offer this. If you are paid even the full 40k USD, doesn't that make you a somewhat wealthy man in the 2nd/3rd world?? That said, financial compensation IS important. I am sure I would need an increase in pay.

I was referring to Net Savings, not Total salary.
If someone makes a salary of 40k and their annual net savings is 6~8 K. Look for 12~16K net savings minimum in the job abroad. When you take a Good Job with attractive benefits, all you need to spend is only for your food and other essentials. Rest are upto you as to what you want to do depending on your life style.If you are smart enough, you can save the most.
Govind.

In April I flat turned down a starting salary of $118K from a major US corp to do Q-EHS in another country. All the tax free bennies, vacation stuff and bonus stuff kicked the money up even higher. The country was one that is in the news every day and the company has had some of its folks displayed on TV. You've got to look at more than the money in today's labor market.

I am just wondering where to find good jobs in China. I have been searching for jobs at the popular job sites like Monster.com, hotjobs.com ..... and I found a few from time to time. I am in a good position to work in China, in ShenZhen in particular, because I own a condo in Hong Kong. I read and write Chinese and have been in QA for over 20 years with majoy defense contractors like Raytheon and General Dynamics. I must have been looking in the wrong places for QA/Auditing jobs in China.

I am just wondering where to find good jobs in China. I have been searching for jobs at the popular job sites like Monster.com, hotjobs.com ..... and I found a few from time to time. I am in a good position to work in China, in ShenZhen in particular, because I own a condo in Hong Kong. I read and write Chinese and have been in QA for over 20 years with majoy defense contractors like Raytheon and General Dynamics. I must have been looking in the wrong places for QA/Auditing jobs in China.
One of the interesting things to come to light in the past year or so is that many companies no longer use the term "quality" in a position title, preferring instead to use terms like "process engineer" instead of "quality engineer" although the functions listed in the job descriptions are pretty much the same.

We have several excellent threads on getting new employment in this Forum:
Occupation Discussions (http://elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30)
Post your questions, discussion and comments about occupations - including work in general - in this forum. Resume content and other information can be discussed here as well. where you started this thread. the one I really recommend is
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting (http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325) http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/rating/rating_5.gif

If you find a Multi National company to hire you, with legal contracts internationally undisputable, salary negotiated in USD, net saving at least twice more as home ground, minimum contract of 5 years, atleast one expense paid for family visit/year, medical fully covered, safe to work, then it is a smart move.

My 2 cents..
Govind.

Govind,

I am in this situation right now. I am waiting to see my contract in the next few weeks then it is off to Kuwait. It is definately not a 'Quality' Role but the money is astronomical.

It is in USD, No tax, No rent, Full Medical, Paid Leave and tickets home every eight weeks. I cannot tell you what I am doing or who I am working for but If I accept the contracts, I will be leaving in June. I will stay in contact with everyone at the cove and may divulge a little more once I am over there.

Good luck. I hope it is safer than the one Randy turned down in another Mideastern nation for 6 figures plus.

I am waiting to see my contract in the next few weeks then it is off to Kuwait. Good luck, Greg. Keep in touch :agree:

/Claes

Govind,

I am in this situation right now. I am waiting to see my contract in the next few weeks then it is off to Kuwait. It is definately not a 'Quality' Role but the money is astronomical.

It is in USD, No tax, No rent, Full Medical, Paid Leave and tickets home every eight weeks. I cannot tell you what I am doing or who I am working for but If I accept the contracts, I will be leaving in June. I will stay in contact with everyone at the cove and may divulge a little more once I am over there.

Hello Greg,
I did not check this thread for quite some time. Good Luck with your new job. Yes, Middle East jobs seem to pay very well and benefits are extremely good.
Keep in touch. Hope you can still write your ASQ Certification from Kuwait.
Regards,
Govind.

I am waiting to see my contract in the next few weeks then it is off to Kuwait. It is definately not a 'Quality' Role but the money is astronomical.:nope:Personally, I don't think they could pay me any amount to work there.:mg::biglaugh::lol::lmao:

:nope:Personally, I don't think they could pay me any amount to work there.:mg::biglaugh::lol::lmao:


Actually, There are a few great countries in Middle East which I wouldn't mind to work for.
Kuwait, Dubai, Bahrain, ... These are the smaller, more moderate countries, along the Persian Gulf, ruled by kings who enjoy the benefits of oil, and share the wealth with their citizens.

Then again, I love my freedom of choice, Specially the choice to drink a couple of beers over the weekend. :biglaugh:

What I consider is whether I can get a lot of knowledges include local language , management skills.