ISO 9002:2000 - I did not know it existed - Not to mention QS-9000:2000 [Elsmar Cove Index (Ar)]

Wes Bucey

20th July 2004, 03:00 PM

But obviously other people know of ISO 9002:2000
And you can even get UKAS and RAB accredited certificates to it.
Details of the record

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Company Name</TD><TD>Gaffoglio Family Metalcrafters, Inc.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Division</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>City</TD><TD>Fountain Valley</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>State or Province</TD><TD>California</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Country</TD><TD>UNITED STATES</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Registrar</TD><TD>PJR</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Standard</TD><TD>ISO 9001:2000</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Certificate Number</TD><TD>C2004-00848</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Product or Service</TD><TD>Vehicle Preparation for Television and

Still Photography
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=100>Accreditation Mark(s)</TD><TD>PJR, RAB, UKAS</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I hope the Gaffoglio Family gets a discount from their advertising copywriter.

D.Scott

20th July 2004, 03:38 PM

As it appears the registrar is PJ, I guess it is possible that it is not the advertising copywriter's fault. After all, that looks like the original certificate.

Dave

Howard Atkins

21st July 2004, 02:33 AM

They also have QS9000:2000

http://www.metalcrafters.com/images/certs_page_22.jpg

Some one is working on them big time.

Should we tell them, seriously

Al Rosen

21st July 2004, 10:39 AM

Rob Nix

21st July 2004, 11:21 AM

What I believe is that these companies previously held ISO 9002:1994 and trransitioned to ISO 9002:2000. Something happened in updating the website.

Would that not be a failure in their document control system, and therefore keep them from being registered until it's corrected?? :lol:

D.Scott

21st July 2004, 11:38 AM

Maybe it is one of those Y2K things and will never be explained.

Dave

Sidney Vianna

21st July 2004, 02:30 PM

If you do a Google search for ISO9002:2000, you will find that many websites have claimed to be registered to ISO 9002:2000. What I believe is that these companies previously held ISO 9002:1994 and trransitioned to ISO 9002:2000. Something happened in updating the website. IF you check their registrations on world perferred registry, you will see that they are registered to ISO 9001:2000. Never assume.

Al, you are correct. I google'd ISO 9002:2000 and came up with a lot of sites. There is even a consulting company in Ontario, Canada that lists ISO 9002:2000 and ISO 9003:2000 in their website. How knowledgeable :eek:

There is an Aerospace company that might invoke ISO 9002:2000 as well, to their suppliers. Sorry for them. Few registrars issue certificates to this non-existing Std. :lol:

Another evidence of the trivialization of ISO 9000. Instant experts. Instant results :mad:

Wes Bucey

21st July 2004, 03:20 PM

Al, you are correct. I google'd ISO 9002:2000 and came up with a lot of sites. There is even a consulting company in Ontario, Canada that lists ISO 9002:2000 and ISO 9003:2000 in their website. How knowledgeable http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

There is an Aerospace company that might invoke ISO 9002:2000 as well, to their suppliers. Sorry for them. Few registrars issue certificates to this non-existing Std. http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/lol.gif

Another evidence of the trivialization of ISO 9000. Instant experts. Instant results http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/ranting.gifThis is just public notice that I, Wes Bucey, Quality Guru, will be issuing Certificates of Registration (suitable for framing) to all qualified organizations for the following Standards:

TS16949-Z (this is the renownedTough S--t Certificate for Organizations unable to achieve TS16949)
QS9002:2000 (This is at closeout prices!)
AS9102:2000 (The stellar Aerospace Standard for Organizations whose engineers primarily create paper aircraft for indoor flight)
ISO9002:2005 (Be ahead of the crowd - register to the latest and greatest Standard)
Prices are negotiable, depending how many letters in the Organization name for inclusion on the certificate. Payment in cash, check, credit card, money order, Pay Pal readily accepted from all organizations (no stamps [my email provider doesn't accept them] or empty pop bottles, please.)

This is not a joke - I'm serious.

ZamaDan

21st July 2004, 03:56 PM

Can i have the COR for AS9102 : 2000, but an updated 2005 version. :agree1:

Al Rosen

21st July 2004, 04:32 PM

Rob Nix

21st July 2004, 04:44 PM

Wes,

May I have the entire suite of available certificates, and shall I send the check in advance to your untraceable PO Box?

:rolleyes:

Wes Bucey

21st July 2004, 06:24 PM

Wes,

May I have the entire suite of available certificates, and shall I send the check in advance to your untraceable PO Box?

:rolleyes:Perhaps I could just post the forms on a website and you could add the proper name, then print as many copies as you need. I'd trust you, Rob, to pay, but some of these others might be slow pay.

AllanJ

2nd August 2004, 12:47 PM

This is just public notice that I, Wes Bucey, Quality Guru, will be issuing Certificates of Registration (suitable for framing) to all qualified organizations for the following Standards:

TS16949-Z (this is the renownedTough S--t Certificate for Organizations unable to achieve TS16949)
QS9002:2000 (This is at closeout prices!)
AS9102:2000 (The stellar Aerospace Standard for Organizations whose engineers primarily create paper aircraft for indoor flight)
ISO9002:2005 (Be ahead of the crowd - register to the latest and greatest Standard)
Prices are negotiable, depending how many letters in the Organization name for inclusion on the certificate. Payment in cash, check, credit card, money order, Pay Pal readily accepted from all organizations (no stamps [my email provider doesn't accept them] or empty pop bottles, please.)

This is not a joke - I'm serious.

Wes is clearly onto something here. Now, since we as quality professionals are supposed to believe in "prevention" and in planning ahead, could Wes quote for a COR for the forthcoming ISO 9K applicable for year 2020 (what perfect vision?)?

If such a certificate would be available, the Q manager (or whatever title) would prevent registrar fees for the next 16 years, he/she would be planning for the full effects of globalization and customer expectations in 2020 and (for publicly traded companies) the registrant company would be ahead of its competitors which might give a boost to the stock price. The company Q Manager would, then, merit an instant 16 years of bonus for offering a measurable benefit as part of the firm's Value-added inititive, notwithstanding the fact that the company's CI has clearly leapt ahead. If the bonus is sufficiently high, he/she could then retire knowing a positive contribution has been made for all the "stakeholders". What a wonderful testimony for a true professional!

Wes Bucey

2nd August 2004, 01:10 PM

Wes is clearly onto something here. Now, since we as quality professionals are supposed to believe in "prevention" and in planning ahead, could Wes quote for a COR for the forthcoming ISO 9K applicable for year 2020 (what perfect vision?)?

If such a certificate would be available, the Q manager (or whatever title) would prevent registrar fees for the next 16 years, he/she would be planning for the full effects of globalization and customer expectations in 2020 and (for publicly traded companies) the registrant company would be ahead of its competitors which might give a boost to the stock price. The company Q Manager would, then, merit an instant 16 years of bonus for offering a measurable benefit as part of the firm's Value-added inititive, notwithstanding the fact that the company's CI has clearly leapt ahead. If the bonus is sufficiently high, he/she could then retire knowing a positive contribution has been made for all the "stakeholders". What a wonderful testimony for a true professional!There is one minor hitch. Discounting 16 years of bonuses to present value based on projected inflation means I'd get about 36 cents today (not quite enough to pay for the stamp to send it to the bank for deposit.):lmao:

AllanJ

2nd August 2004, 01:47 PM

There is one minor hitch. Discounting 16 years of bonuses to present value based on projected inflation means I'd get about 36 cents today (not quite enough to pay for the stamp to send it to the bank for deposit.):lmao:

Wes, you really disappoint me. Do you really think your bonus would be so low that it would only be worth 36 cents? Or is that typical of your firm's bonus rates? Or, are you inferring that ISO 9K certs really have such a low value anyway!? Or, more cryptically, do you have some prescient view of what future inflation until 2020 will be? If so, move aside, Alan Greenspan, here comes Wes! (And perhaps Mr Greenspan earns more than we do in the quality world.)

But, you miss also the main business opportunity.

Suppose you issued a 2020 ISO 9K cert. Everyone would want to know how it was achieved. The ISO TC 176 committee would want to know what is in the 2020 standard, so would all the consultants. The registrars, habitually behind the curve of what is going on in industry, would run to great you and treat you, offering you special positions - as happened for some when QS 9K emerged. And, with everyone's interest heightened, you could then run seminars, offer consulting and training and be acknowledged as a "quality savant", a clear one up on the title "guru".

My thoughts are clearly influenced by the passage in "Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galxay" concerning those who got into the business of predicting what would be "Deep Thought's" answer to the "ultimate question", and made a fortune. Do you need an agent?

Wes Bucey

2nd August 2004, 02:18 PM

Wes, you really disappoint me. Do you really think your bonus would be so low that it would only be worth 36 cents? Or is that typical of your firm's bonus rates? Or, are you inferring that ISO 9K certs really have such a low value anyway!? Or, more cryptically, do you have some prescient view of what future inflation until 2020 will be? If so, move aside, Alan Greenspan, here comes Wes! (And perhaps Mr Greenspan earns more than we do in the quality world.)

But, you miss also the main business opportunity.

Suppose you issued a 2020 ISO 9K cert. Everyone would want to know how it was achieved. The ISO TC 176 committee would want to know what is in the 2020 standard, so would all the consultants. The registrars, habitually behind the curve of what is going on in industry, would run to great you and treat you, offering you special positions - as happened for some when QS 9K emerged. And, with everyone's interest heightened, you could then run seminars, offer consulting and training and be acknowledged as a "quality savant", a clear one up on the title "guru".

My thoughts are clearly influenced by the passage in "Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galxay" concerning those who got into the business of predicting what would be "Deep Thought's" answer to the "ultimate question", and made a fortune. Do you need an agent?NOW, I'm put in mind of the closing verse of a Frank Sinatra song:
It Was A Very Good Year
Words & Music by Ervin Drake
Recorded by Frank Sinatra, 1965

When I was seventeen
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for small town girls
And soft summer nights
We'd hide from the lights
On the village green
When I was seventeen

When I was twenty-one
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for city girls
Who lived up the stair
With all that perfumed hair
And it came undone
When I was twenty-one

When I was thirty-five
It was a very good year
It was a very good year for blue-blooded girls
Of independent means
We'd ride in limousines
That their chauffeurs would drive
When I was thirty-five

And now the days are short
I'm in the autumn of the year
And now I think of my life as vintage wines
In fine old kegs
From the brim to the dregs
They pour sweet and clear
It was a very good year

Howard Atkins

3rd August 2004, 02:23 AM

Howard Atkins

8th August 2004, 02:21 AM

As promised I sent a complaint on this issue to UKAS and RAB.
I have an answer from UKAS

"Dear Mr Atkins

thank you for your email regarding the above. I have reviewed the information you have supplied and can advise that the certificate referencing ISO 9002:2000 is indeed incorrect. We have therefore formally logged this into our feedback system. We will then bring this to the attention of the certification body concerned (Perry Johnson Registrars) and get them to take corrective/preventative action and review this at the next assessment visit scheduled for October 2004.

In the case of the other certificate I can advise that QS-9000 as a sector scheme within Quality Management System is allied to the previous version of ISO 9001 and will ceases to exist as a scheme in 2006. Therefore the reference to the standard is correct. However, what is missing is an explanatory statement which has been sanctioned by the QS-9000 scheme owner in order that it is clear as to why ISO 9001:1999 is being referenced. We have therefore also logged this case and will progress it in the same way as described above.

Many thanks for bringing this to our attention and be assured that appropriate action will be taken.

Regards

Jackie Hooks
Commercial Team Leader (Certification and Engineering Inspection)
United Kingdom Accreditation Service
Tel: 020 8917 8419
Fax: 020 8917 8500
"

Wes Bucey

8th August 2004, 07:28 AM

Sidney Vianna

10th November 2004, 03:02 PM

My grandmother would have loved you, Howard. She always said,
"Light a candle instead of curse the darkness."

While the rest of us made smarmy comments, you took action. Good job!http://elsmar.com/Forums/images/smilies/appl.gifI agree, Wes. Too bad that the erroneous certificates and standards are still posted at the Organization's website http://www.metalcrafters.com/certs_page.html

And this is after UKAS replied to Howard, promising action. So, Howard, what about asking UKAS again?

lindal

10th November 2004, 03:47 PM

And this is after UKAS replied to Howard, promising action. So, Howard, what about asking UKAS again?

Has anyone notified Metalcrafters? I felt like one of Noah's sons when I checked out their web page (although I'm not sure whether I'm averting my eyes or laughing). Maybe I'm wrong, but someone should tell them they're "drunk and naked" as far as their certs go.

L

Howard Atkins

10th November 2004, 04:28 PM

Even though it would seem to be my position to tell them I decline.
Not defending UKAS this does not mean that they have dealt with it.
I will ask for info. RAB who also appear on the certificate never answerd!!

Sidney Vianna

20th May 2005, 06:01 PM

michelle8075

23rd May 2005, 03:13 PM

tarheels4

23rd May 2005, 03:35 PM

I agree, Wes. Too bad that the erroneous certificates and standards are still posted at the Organization's website http://www.metalcrafters.com/certs_page.html

And this is after UKAS replied to Howard, promising action. So, Howard, what about asking UKAS again?
I think the company could have their certificate pulled for the last statement on the web page.

"With our QS ...certifications we have demonstrated that our management control system...insures and proves the quality of our prototype."

They are saying because they are registered they make good product. This IMO is a no no. But I doubt if PJ has the balls to do anything. I wonder if PJ registered the Mexican agency that made the questionable claims about employeement? Remember that one?

Claims made by ISO 9000 registered organizations http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=11673

D.Scott

23rd May 2005, 03:36 PM

I live in the metro Detroit area, and this has become one of my pet peeves. I see a lot of semi-trucks (let's just say these were trucks that were for the "Big 3") with "ISO-9002" certified still on them. Hello????? We are PUSHED by the "Big 3" to have great quality systems and I see this. Makes me want to stop the truck, and issue them a CAR! (he he he he he) :soap:

Isn't saying that you are certified to a non-existant standard false advertisement?

I guess you certainly have a point, but I don't think it is unreasonable to leave the "old" information on the truck until the next opportunity to change it (Re-paint). I think the fact that they were indeed certified in the first place and that advertising of the certification was promoted industry wide would allow some slack. Another question would certainly have to be, does it say who certifies them? They might be self certified in which case who really cares? I understand the ISO-9002 standard is no longer in effect but is there a law saying you couldn't be certified to it even though it has expired?

I would think this is similar to Guide 25 being replaced by 17025. Even though the old Guide 25 no longer existed, there was a whole lab approval system sanctioned by the AIAG based on it. These labs were still approved for years to a non-existant document.

My opinion is that the company with the wrong information on it should get it changed or eventually look a bit silly to their customers but it would be wrong for anyone to try to force the issue. In our changing industry we may find ourselves painting a lot. QS is being replaced by TS 16949 and what happens when they decide to take the "TS" part off?

:mg: Besides, I think our truck still says "ISO 9001" which is not true because we have QS so we are one of the guilty ones :bonk:

Dave

tarheels4

23rd May 2005, 03:54 PM

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sidney Vianna) I agree, Wes. Too bad that the erroneous certificates and standards are still posted at the Organization's website http://www.metalcrafters.com/certs_page.html

And this is after
I think the company could have their certificate pulled for the last statement on the web page.

"With our QS ...certifications we have demonstrated that our management control system...insures and proves the quality of our prototype."

They are saying because they are registered they make good product. This IMO is a no no. But I doubt if PJ has the balls to do anything. I wonder if PJ registered the Mexican agency that made the questionable claims about employeement? Remember that one?

Claims made by ISO 9000 registered organizations http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=11673

Sidney would DNV take the certificate from this company for the statements on their web page?

AllanJ

23rd May 2005, 04:08 PM

Such a disgrace! For a company to wrongly advertise certification to a standard. Tut, Tut, Tut! Shock and horror.

And how wrong would it be for a company to be given a certificate stating they comply with a particular standard when in fact they have open CARs issued by the carefully selected, highly diligent registrar. How many of those exist and which registrar can claim none of their clients are in that situation? Enter the glass house with your stones!

Yes, misrepresentation really is most distasteful. But, what about the miscreant's product supplied to its customers? Does the quality of that not matter most of all?

tarheels4

23rd May 2005, 04:19 PM

Sidney Vianna

24th May 2005, 01:27 AM

tarheels4

24th May 2005, 08:23 AM

And a DNV client would not have a certificate to ISO 9002:2000 to start with. Why? There is no such standard.
But Sidney there is an ISO 9001:2000 standard and a certifcate for it at the web site you posted. And you either deliberately ignored the question I asked you, or you didn't understand it.

Howard Atkins

24th May 2005, 09:17 AM

Due to popular demand I have sent a reminder to UKAS.
I might add that RAB never answered.

AllanJ

24th May 2005, 09:35 AM

This might seem trivial to some, but when you have a written statement from a representative from one of the leading accreditation agencies in the world promising that appropriate actions would be taken and, eight months later, you still have a website displaying a certificate, bearing their logo, indicating conformance to non existing standards, it seems to be indicative of the sad state of affairs we are in.
Sidney, from your posts it is clear to me you are among the few in the registration business who do care about the level of service, integrity and ethical conduct that should underpin the registration/ accreditation industry. For that you must be applauded. And, I think you are almost a voice in the wilderness. And that is a situation with which I am personally very familiar.

If, though, the accreditation/ registration business is in a sad state of affairs, it is of its own making. As I have stated in another post elsewhere, you have the wrong people leading that whole thing and in the wrong way.

As I recently sated to Randy, during our enjoyable Dearborn meeting, I have a high regard for DNV for its avant garde position over quality assurance that predates other large registrars by years. As I know only too well myself, we can be cursed by association with those who care not.

But, as you will no doubt realise, DNV must fight the battle that matters and that silly web site or an outdated/ wrong logo on trucks is not the fight that matters.

Sidney Vianna

26th May 2005, 11:32 AM

Allan, I really appreciate your comments. I am one of the few within the certification business (I believe) that echoes the concern that too much emphasis is placed on certification.

Believe me. I pick my fights carefully. I do not consider this a fight, though. I think of this case as a demonstration of how an accreditation body should be able to show that they can do something about a misrepresentation and, apparently are either unwilling or incapable of enforcing something that should be resolved, reasonably fast.

qualitymanager

12th June 2005, 12:49 AM

I haven't seen it mentioned, so I'll throw in my 2 cents:

When I was at the NSB for my country, I made it my business to have the Executive Director write to those companies which were incorrectly advertising their certification status (I remember one saying they were "ISO 14000 accredited" in a newspaper ad) to advise them to consult the ISO guidleines on promoting their certification status & correct the error.

As such, who in the US, or that state has the authority to get the company to change it? ANSI maybe? Or AIAG?

Howard Atkins

1st July 2005, 02:55 AM

Due to popular demand I have sent a reminder to UKAS.
I might add that RAB never answered.

Here is the reply that I got from UKAS

Dear Mr Atkins

I am writing to advise you of the outcome of our investigations into the above feedback which you supplied on 24th May 2005.

Following your email an Investigating Officer was appointed to review the issue you raised and take this forward with the Accredited Certification Body concerned, Perry Johnson Registrars(PJR). A full and thorough investigation has been conducted by PJR into their clients use of the UKAS mark and corrective action has been taken. This action has been reviewed and verified as appropriate by the UKAS Investigating Officer.

UKAS therefore considers that this feedback has been dealt with in accordance with the accreditation requirements and is now closed.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Regards

The certificates are not available at companies site any more.
The question is whose idea was the certifictae. The company or the registrar?

Sidney Vianna

1st July 2005, 04:05 PM

Howard, thanks for perservering on this one.

Cari Spears

16th July 2005, 10:24 AM

Howard Atkins

17th July 2005, 03:04 AM

I thought I would look for more,
There are a lot of typos of companies saying they have but show ISO9001:2000 certificates
but you can buy the standard here

Quality and Standards Authority of Ethiopial (http://www.qsae.org/web_en/cat/items/d418.html)

Sidney Vianna

1st June 2006, 08:16 PM

At least one company is ahead of the curve and achieved ISO 9001:2006 certification.:bonk: http://www.achievo.com/News/index.php?Page_Name=News_List&News_Id=988
Somebody should check these press releases.

Did you know that ISO 9001 certification equates to improved customer profitability? :confused: According to the release, it does....

"ISO 9001:2006 certification assures our customers that their IT and software development projects conform to the highest possible standards of quality, and that well-defined and documented output procedures are in place" said Dr. Robert P. Lee, Achievo's chairman and CEO. "Having an ISO Quality Management System (QMS) in place signals better operations, improved performance, and improved profitability for our customers. As the premier global software and IT outsourcing company, Achievo is committed to opening ourselves to the highest level of professional scrutiny, which is what ISO certification accomplishes."

Jim Wynne

1st June 2006, 09:51 PM


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