Hello all,

It seems that I have heard over and over that TS does NOT require you to map your processes. However, I just submitted the quality manual to our registrar. Below is the comment that came back on process maps:

"TS 16949-2002, clause 4.2.2.c – the diagram submitted DOES NOT address the information requirements for the TS 16949-2002 automotive approach.

Please submit the (company name) Process Maps referenced on the diagram.

Make sure that they are part of the quality manual."

Ok, if TS doesn't REQUIRE you to map your processes, then how come some registrars are demanding it, right down to what format you are supposed to use? :confused: (turtle diagram is required in this instance)

Jonell

The ONLY requirement is to define each process and then describe the interaction between them. Nothing more, nothing less.
Although process mapping/process diagrams is/are not required, it may be the easiest and the best pictorial method. Next would be a tabular method, which by the way, is the method defined by AIAG for the automotive approach. And it also follows the control plan approach. You could also prepare a written description; however this might become a little confusing.

"TS 16949-2002, clause 4.2.2.c – the diagram submitted DOES NOT address the information requirements for the TS 16949-2002 automotive approach." :rolleyes:

Did your auditor explain what these "information Requirements" are? It would be interesting to hear what he would say.

Jonell,
If you submit flowcharts as being an integral part of your BMS, expect them to be assessed by a third party auditor.
Regardless of the inclusion, requirement or not by ISO/TS. If you even include a cartoon in your QM, it shall be assessed by a third party auditor for conformity to the standard and your good old fashioned planned arrangements. :tg:
Wallace.

Did your auditor explain what these "information Requirements" are? It would be interesting to hear what he would say.

Sam,

I'm assuming that he considers the information requirements to be the process maps. He goes on to give me a list of what is required to be included in the process maps.

Jonell

Sam,

I'm assuming that he considers the information requirements to be the process maps. He goes on to give me a list of what is required to be included in the process maps.

Jonell

Could you share with us what other requirements your auditor is says should be included.
The only requirement of para 4.2.2.c is to describe the "interaction" of the processes. Have you done that? I don't believe your auditor can tell you how your processes sould interact.

Wallace is correct. If you have submited process maps they will be reviewed. However this does not mean there is to be additional requirements.

As I read further in your first post, I see the mention of the turtle diagram. This is an aid to help in determining if your process meets the requirements for an automotive process, i.e, inputs, activities, outputs. It is not a requirement to include these with the quality manual.
Refer to the Errata sheet to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for additional information. This can be found on the AIAG website.

We just passed our TS2 Registration audit and were the first to do so with zero nonconformances. I can tell you our auditor also looks at effectiveness and efficiency of your processes. So just having the process maps will not solve the issue of what your results are. If you have good results then they will be less critical of how you are doing something.

As I read further in your first post, I see the mention of the turtle diagram. This is an aid to help in determining if your process meets the requirements for an automotive process, i.e, inputs, activities, outputs. It is not a requirement to include these with the quality manual.
Refer to the Errata sheet to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for additional information. This can be found on the AIAG website.

Sam,

I'd be happy to. According to the auditor, the process maps are to be included as part of the quality manual. Below is what he sent:

"Please submit the (company name) Process Maps referenced on the diagram.

Make sure that they are part of the quality manual.

Make sure that each process map addresses and documents the following:
For each documented process, ask and answer the following criteria:
1) What is the internal/external customer-required output?
2) What activity(s) are performed to produce the output?
3) What equipment, material, environmental needs, etc. are needed to do this?
4) What personnel(which job functions), skills, experience, special knowledge are needed to do this?
5) What procedures, specifications, forms etc., are used to produce output?
6) How is the process measured for effectiveness in producing output that meets or exceeds the customer’s need? Each COP requires a measurement indicator, as an absolute minimum.
7) What other processes provide inputs, or use the output produced from this process? (i.e., linked processes)
8) What other processes need to be in place and functioning adequately to allow this process to function correctly to produce the required output(s)? (i.e., supporting processes)"

I have the process maps done, and will submit them to him as part of the quality manual, so that he is satisfied. They are done in the turtle diagram format, because that is the way he wants, that is the template that he gave me to use when he was here for the pre-assessment.

Jonell

IMO you need to find a new registrar or maybe it's just the auditor. Sounds like this one expects you to perform the audit for him and is using the old "QS-9000" tactics/methods to audit. Personally, I would have serious issues with this auditor.

Attached is the quality manual process map we used to certify 9 manufacturing sites to the TS standard (some references have been deleted to protect the innocent :rolleyes: ). All plants received certification without one nonconformance sited.

Make sure that each process map addresses and documents the following:
For each documented process, ask and answer the following criteria:
1) What is the internal/external customer-required output?
2) What activity(s) are performed to produce the output?
3) What equipment, material, environmental needs, etc. are needed to do this?
4) What personnel(which job functions), skills, experience, special knowledge are needed to do this?
5) What procedures, specifications, forms etc., are used to produce output?
6) How is the process measured for effectiveness in producing output that meets or exceeds the customer’s need? Each COP requires a measurement indicator, as an absolute minimum.
7) What other processes provide inputs, or use the output produced from this process? (i.e., linked processes)
8) What other processes need to be in place and functioning adequately to allow this process to function correctly to produce the required output(s)? (i.e., supporting processes)"[/I]


I think I would ask the auditor where the specific "shall" is for each of the above. Although each of the items are probably good, I think it is going far above what is required in TS. It sounds like the auditor or registrar has their own definition of what "describe the interaction" means.

Jonell,
The points that you list are good. They define and help develop the process. But they have NOTHING to do with describing interaction as required by 4.2.2.c.
Since you have already completed the work that your auditor has requested any other suggestions would be moot at this time.
However n the interest of quality improvement I would suggest that you enroll in the two courses that AIAG offers; implementaion of TS and auditing TS. You then can improve your QMS to suit your needs and not the needs of an auditor.

I'm curious. Now that you have turtles what do you think of them?

I resisted them at first (not invented by me). But now that we created them, I find them to be a really effective tool for training and explaining.

Would you care to share your thoughts?

However n the interest of quality improvement I would suggest that you enroll in the two courses that AIAG offers; implementaion of TS and auditing TS. You then can improve your QMS to suit your needs and not the needs of an auditor.

Sam,

Thanks for the advice. Would love to take those courses....however, it won't fly with the owner. Too many $$$. And I also manage our IT stuff here, so that would mean days with no IT support, which he won't go for either.

Jonell

I'm curious. Now that you have turtles what do you think of them?

I resisted them at first (not invented by me). But now that we created them, I find them to be a really effective tool for training and explaining.

Would you care to share your thoughts?

In all honesty, I really struggled with them. I have had no training in TS, or process mapping, so I rather felt like I didn't know what I was doing when filling them out. I also felt that it should have been more than just me deciding what our processes were, because if only 1 person does that, then there is no ownership for the processes throughout the company. No one else in the company has looked at them or enquired about them, although I have brought them to several TS "team" meetings. So, at this point, they are just another piece of paper to satisfy the auditor. JMHO

Jonell

In all honesty, I really struggled with them. I have had no training in TS, or process mapping, so I rather felt like I didn't know what I was doing when filling them out. I also felt that it should have been more than just me deciding what our processes were, because if only 1 person does that, then there is no ownership for the processes throughout the company. No one else in the company has looked at them or enquired about them, although I have brought them to several TS "team" meetings. So, at this point, they are just another piece of paper to satisfy the auditor. JMHO

Jonell

Where did you get your turtle diagram. There are two or three really good ones on this site. Try a search.
Have you received any feedback from your auditor? If you have responded favorably to this NCR and others written during your pre-assessment, I wouldn't worry too much. You will receive a few more NCR's during your registration audit.
The fun starts with the 1st surveillance audit.

I will add a couple of items that might help you with the process method.

Jonell - Your system is destined to fail - no matter how good a job you do. One person cannot effectively design and implement TS. That, I believe, was one of the failures of QS. QS was looked upon as belonging to the Quality Department. There was a huge disconnect between the system and the actual operations. If your owner still has this mindset TS will not be able to be implemented properly.
If the system is their just to satisfy the auditor or TS is just a piece of paper - it will fail - your company will fail audit after audit.
I suggest you have your owner read TS and see how many times the phrase “Top Management” (that's him) appears - He (or she, if that is the case) is the one who will be held accountable by the auditor.

Where did you get your turtle diagram. There are two or three really good ones on this site.

My turtle diagram was given to me by the auditor when he came in and did our pre-assessment. He said, "you'll need to map out your processes, and this will be the form that you'll use to do that." Then he handed me a disk, saying that there was a copy of that form on the disk.

Jonell

Find a new auditor!

Jonell - Your system is destined to fail - no matter how good a job you do. One person cannot effectively design and implement TS. That, I believe, was one of the failures of QS. QS was looked upon as belonging to the Quality Department. There was a huge disconnect between the system and the actual operations. If your owner still has this mindset TS will not be able to be implemented properly.
If the system is their just to satisfy the auditor or TS is just a piece of paper - it will fail - your company will fail audit after audit.
I suggest you have your owner read TS and see how many times the phrase “Top Management” (that's him) appears - He (or she, if that is the case) is the one who will be held accountable by the auditor.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The problem is that the owner has that mindset because that's how the ISO (both 1994 & 2000 version) was put in place here. Unfortunately, it's not going to be "Top Management" who will be held accountable once the auditor leaves, as I'm well aware of. It's actually very sad. I was finally able to talk him into hiring a company to come in and do some TS training here for the next 3 days, the owner could have sat in on it, but he won't be here for 2 of the days.

Jonell

Jonell


I feel your pain - lack of management support has happened to me as well.

In my case, I pushed back.

Every time my boss asked how I was doing on QS 9000 I said, I'm waiting for you.

Finally there was enough customer pressure that he had to listen.

I insisted that he LEAD a QS 9000 steering committee made up of EVERY manager.

I insisted on weekly progress meetings

The next step was to have himself and the steering committee attend a 2 DAY QS 9000 awareness session.

After that they finally saw why Quality couldn't just get it done on their own.

The problem was they had never read the standard, they only thought they knew what it said.

After all, it says Quality system, why not just delegate it to Quality and leave it to them? Once they saw that it was really a business system, things started to move.

Then I got the boss and the top team to attend and participate in a 3 DAY gap analysis. This opened a lot of eyes and left them with an appreciation of the work to be done.

Interestingly (to them anyway), there were few gaps in the “quality” requirements, but there were Grand Canyons everywhere else.

I hired an external consultant for this (after all, what could I possibly know).

This took an incredible 18 months of delay.

The actual implementation was done in 2 months, once the boss got people motivated.

Of course, I am prepared for the consequences of this approach. I think life is too short to be unhappy at work. I was prepared to leave at any time if he didn't like this approach.

I do not advise anyone to use this approach. I won the battle but lost the war. I am no longer with that company. Was it worth it? NO.

Here is some good information on turtles from the people who created them. Look for the user guide - it is very helpful.

http://www.terrapeneintl.com/support/index.htm


Caster

I suggest that those affected report their certification body to their national accreditation body (UKAS/RAB, etc), as they are in breach of their accreditation rules by offering consultancy.