I am working with a small manufacturing company whose customer is requiring ISO-9001 with a possible move toward TS-16949 in the future. They provide machining services on customer provided castings and purchase steel and bar stock for other items. I have come accross a situation new to me.

The company never issues PO's. They never have. I looked at a 100 or so invoices and they all say verbal or someother version of that in the PO section. In a few cases, the supplier issues a number that they put in the PO section of the invoice.

I can map the process by saying that the person issuing the verbal order verifies and approves the correctness of the order at the time it is placed. Also, the person issuing the order provides prints and specifications when needed.

The orders are for tool steel, bar stock, heat treating, occasional plating, subcontract for threading, etc.

What are the issues that you see with having no paper PO's?

Do you think it is possible to get certified without them?

What is the least amount of documentation that would satisfy the requirements?

I am looking for some creative solutions to this situation. So, I would appreciate your input and ideas. :thanks:

Thanks

I am working with a small manufacturing company whose customer is requiring ISO-9001 with a possible move toward TS-16949 in the future. They provide machining services on customer provided castings and purchase steel and bar stock for other items. I have come accross a situation new to me.

The company never issues PO's. They never have. I looked at a 100 or so invoices and they all say verbal or someother version of that in the PO section. In a few cases, the supplier issues a number that they put in the PO section of the invoice.

I can map the process by saying that the person issuing the verbal order verifies and approves the correctness of the order at the time it is placed. Also, the person issuing the order provides prints and specifications when needed.

The orders are for tool steel, bar stock, heat treating, occasional plating, subcontract for threading, etc.

What are the issues that you see with having no paper PO's?

Do you think it is possible to get certified without them?

What is the least amount of documentation that would satisfy the requirements?

I am looking for some creative solutions to this situation. So, I would appreciate your input and ideas. :thanks:

Thanks Do they keep a Record of what they order? That and the prints and specifications would:
ensure that purchased product conforms to specified requirements I would think as long as there are no CAs required because the wrong material was ordered or supplied, you could get away with it. Nowhere in ISO9001 7.4 does it say anything about POs.

But, if your client doesn't use POs or believes the need to use them, how does your client feel about the need to control suppliers etc?

Al said: But, if your client doesn't use POs or believes the need to use them, how does your client feel about the need to control suppliers etc?

It looks like they have long-standing relationships with most of their suppliers, and their suppliers also supply to their customers. I will work with them to develop written criteria for supplier selection & evaulation, based on their currently undocumented selection & evaulation processes.

Al said: But, if your client doesn't use POs or believes the need to use them, how does your client feel about the need to control suppliers etc?

It looks like they have long-standing relationships with most of their suppliers, and their suppliers also supply to their customers. I will work with them to develop written criteria for supplier selection & evaulation, based on their currently undocumented selection & evaulation processes.I agree with Al - purchase order paperwork is NOT necessary for your client's business. We are most likely talking about raw materials (ferrous, non-ferrous, and machinable plastics) and tooling as the primary purchases your client would make which might be of ANY concern to your client's customer. In those cases, the material issue could be covered by verbally asking for material certifications at the same time the verbal purchase request is made. This is the ONLY paperwork regarding a machine shop's purchases which can be required by a customer.

Regarding supplier approval: It is NOT written anywhere what the minimum requirements for evidencing approval of ANY supplier might be in order to obtain ISO registration. I would have to review TS16949 to check its view on the topic. Essentially, an organization may use ANY criteria it wishes to approve a supplier. It does not have to be written. The mere fact the buyer keeps the supplier's phone number could be sufficient approval.

This part (purchasing documentation) of an overall gap analysis of readiness for ISO registration is like separating fly specks from pepper - doable, but not crucial in the entire scheme of a QMS (it's more of the Business Management System.)

More important is how the client determines acceptability of incoming goods. How does the client keep track of the goods once they hit his dock? How does he assure traceability of a finished product back to the incoming raw material?
What kind of paperwork (or computer record) does the client maintain on in-process and final inspections? Does he have sufficient quantity of production to maintain SPC records?

How does the client assure conformance to customer requirements? Is there a current product drawing available at every pertinent work station when the product passes through the station?

Does the top management of the client really want to get ISO registration or is this a very reluctant acquiesence to a customer requirement? In other words, will the top management buy into a concept that adherence to an ISO Standard might help them streamline their business to earn more profit on each dollar? Will having the registration help them expand (or even just KEEP) their current market?

These may be primary concerns to address before considering whether there are paper purchase orders.

...It is NOT written anywhere what the minimum requirements for evidencing approval of ANY supplier might be in order to obtain ISO registration...Essentially, an organization may use ANY criteria it wishes to approve a supplier...

Exactly. This is the point in the thread about teaching ourselves ISO - when you're reading/learning the standard - don't read into it, face value only.

Thanks to all for your input.

Sometimes you get "used to seeing" certain things, and it helps to get a reality check from fresh eyes. I totally agree about not "reading into the standard".

I talked to my client about the business aspect of not having a record or log of what was ordered, and posed the questions: How would anyone know if an item was ordered or not, if something happened to him? How much of a problem would that be for the business? He's thinking about it. :)


Thanks!