Let's hear some opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have unions helped or hurt the registration process and why.

Well, Al, this ought to be an interesting thread...I can't wait to hear what our counterparts have to say about unions!! I'll be brave (or stupid) You couldn't pay me enough to work for a union shop. :eek:

Hi Al,

I'm assuming you are referring to the ISO registration process.

I just have one little bit of info and I'll drop this one. (Unions & me are like waving a red flag in front of a really pi**ed off bull... :vfunny: )

Anyway - the NLRA, Section 8(a)(2), prohibits employers from dominating or interfering with the formation or administration of any labor organization or from contributing financial or other support to it.

IF management is using ISO as a tool to grow the business and they are using any form of teams/teamwork, committees, and that/those teams review employees' grievances, working conditions, safety, hours of employment, etc. (Corrective Action forms?), then this is a violation of 8(a)(2). For example, a Safety Committee can be a violation of 8(a)(2).

This flies directly in the face of everything that the Quality movement stands for. Unions don't want the employees empowered to make their own decisions and help guide the company. Unions want to maintain the union...

Enough... I'll quit before I really get started! :truce:

Unions stifle individuality
Unions value time in service over competency
Unions are a haven for slackers

Of course, I was in one for 4 years (UAW). I wasn't allowed to advance over some real poor QC people. If they ever organized here, they would padlock the doors. But, not before I got out!

:ko: :smokin:

I have been a UAW member, and have worked with both union and non-union shops. I know of union shops where the union is the biggest detriment to the employees. I’ve been to non-union shops that desperately needed a union! I found it is not the union, per se that causes the problems. The problems tend to arise (IMNSHO) from the power struggle between union so-called leadership and so-called management. If union leadership would truly lead, and management would truly manage with pure intentions, there would be no problem. In many cases the only desire of the union leadership is to “show management”. I know of several cases were a union permanently closed a shop and the union called it a victory because they “showed management” who had the real power. The leadership really showed their members that they did not care about them. I know of management that closed a shop to prove to the union they couldn’t be pushed around.

Just don’t make sense in either case. On a personal note, I would rather not be part of another union.

Dave,

Good insights - It's good to hear from someone who's been on both sides of the fence.

It really is a pity, isn't it? While I don't necessarily prescribe to the theory that management has a solumn obligation to the employees at all costs... afterall, the ultimate goal is to make money. Yet, management does owe the employees something for their effort.
There again, who were the unions established to protect? The people. Yet, who ended up the loser? The people. Who cares about the people? Typically, it's your quality folks.

You hit the nail right on the head. If more managers were leaders and if more union officials had a vision beyond the coins in their pocket, the employees would be much better off. But then again, if management truly knew how to lead and manage, there wouldn't be any need for a union.

I know, I know... Utopia... :bonk: :frust: :vfunny:

IMO, unions have served their purpose, and in many cases laws (OSHA) are replacing what unions used to be needed for to protect employees. In some cases unions have obtained undeserved and unnecessary power. db said it the best.

Having said that, I was the mgmt rep at a 3300 person UAW shop. When given the assignment, I knew that the union could help, or hurt the process. The way to get anything significant done was to make the union my friend. Looking back, we had some old school UAW's that was skeptical of everything mgmt had to offer, and some very, very progressive young folks (my age anyway) that I knew could help make my job easier. For those of you familiar with GM's quality network of "joint processes" that's how we did QS.

The first thing I did was select an hourly lead auditor along with the salary auditor that was already in place. She became my best ally in the process. The best way so say it, is that QS made sure that employees had what they needed to do their job, which is something that the UAW was easy to stand behind. In my experience, I made the union my ally, and they were instrumental in the success. I'm sure its not the same everywhere, and I was able to rally the right folks.

I never worked for a union, but have seen up-close some union shops and I have several friends in union shops -- well, not as many as once because many have closed down. One friend is a union bigwig in the UAW. But here's my take FWIW: Once upon a time unions served a very, very important need, but over time the need (thanks to the unions' work!) became lessened. Still, the unions wanted to survive at any cost and pushed and pushed and the pendulum swung way too far to the other side.

We've all heard the stories. Here's just one: I had a friend whose Dad worked at a UAW shop who finished his work (sweeping floors at about 4 times the minimum wage) every day in 4 hours -- without much of a sweat --and then he and many of his buddies played poker for the remaining 4 hours. Imagine -- getting paid handsome $$ and astounding benefits to goof off for 4 hours a day and no one can do a d**n thing about it! Then, when the market crashed (heavy trucks) and layoffs came because the union would not give an inch it was the employer who took all the heat. The laid-off people could not get hired elsewhere in the area because the employers knew these folks were not used to working hard all day for a reasonable wage and they would run back to the union shop the minute a callback came. It was an ugly situation.

Properly managed and balanced, I think unions could still be relevant in some areas, but every time a union has tried to come into places I have worked (3 times at different places) each time the employees said overwhelmingly "no way".

I can't comment on the original question, but wanted to add a penny's worth anyway.

Mike S.

Mike S said (in part)

Imagine -- getting paid handsome $$ and astounding benefits to goof off for 4 hours a day and no one can do a d**n thing about it

Of course we all know that participants in the Cove are either doing this on their own time, or it is part of their "professional development"

db said:

Mike S said (in part)



Of course we all know that participants in the Cove are either doing this on their own time, or it is part of their "professional development"
___________________
db,

I'm not sure of your point, and I'm trying not to put words in your mouth. Can you expound? Do you equate the two situations as equal? I do not. Not too many of those union guys regularly work over 40 per week for no additional pay, do they? How many Cove visitors log 4 hours per day at the Cove -- none of which is break/lunch times? Is poker playing equal in benefit to the company as someone learning (and helping others learn) more about their jobs at the Cove? Aren't we comparing apples to grapefruit? Or did I miss your point?

Mike S.

Mike, The Cove can be at times, like a drug. It can be a bit addictive and can be abused. :o

However...........................................

Being a former union folk myself, I can state from experience that I do not feel they are comparable. Apples and grapefruit are both fruits and can be abused, but they are not the same. My comment was meant mostly in jest, but like a lot of Dilbert cartoons there might be a bit of truth there somewhere.
;)

db,

Okay, I understand your point now. Thanks.

Now, back to my nap. I get cranky when I don't get my afternoon nap.;)

Mike S.

db said:

Mike, The Cove can be at times, like a drug. It can be a bit addictive and can be abused. :o



Oh boy... here we go... a 12 step program for the Cove.

1) Admitted we were powerless over the Cove, that our internet connection had become unmanagable.

2) Came to believe that a ISP greater than our current one could restore us to productivity.

3) Made a decision to turn our work & our computers over to the care of Marc as we understand him...

Yikes!!!!! I need to quit now... :biglaugh: :vfunny: :smokin:

Cheers!!!

Recent case in point.

We sell Water Treatment Equipment with an option to have the equipment set up and operated by our Field Service Technician. The technician is skilled in plumbing, electrical, rigging, and other associated duties. We normally expect a maximum of 1-3 days, depending on the complexity of the system, to install and train the Customer on the product. The calculations for his time are figured in with the total cost of the project, even allowing for some reasonable unforeseen snafu.

We recently went to install a system in a large Hospital. This serviceman was not allowed to touch a thing without a trade person present. Besides not being able to find a plumber or an electrician without a massive search of this massive institution, they were inept and wouldn’t even make it through the first interview if they wanted to work here. Imagine having to have someone operate a stepladder for you. The job took two weeks and gobbled up any profit we may have made. Motel stays, car rentals, meals, payroll, etc..consumed the margin and more. No Customer is worth losing money on. We went for, and received an adder for additional costs. Future prices for this Hospital will be “jacked up” to cover the cost of “disorganized labor”.

The Unions time has come and gone. Just visit the local City Hall or Motor Vehicle Department or any State Office and you can see the effects firsthand.

db,
As for the abuse here in the Cove, I’ll let you be the judge of that.
:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:

energy, are you talking about abusing the Cove, or being abused by it? I think in your case I might be able to find "objective evidence" of both!:biglaugh: :vfunny: :bonk: