:truce: In regards to ISO/TS-16949 -- Just wondering if anyone with some time on their hands has completed a turtle diagram, or a cross-functional flowchart for the PPAP process?

I pretty much live and breathe the AIAG 7-pak.. but I just got asked to try to provide an OVERVIEW with outlines the 18/22 points, what they are, who does them, what forms are required.. :nopity:

I tried to answer with, "well that would be redundant to type another AIAG 7-pak, wouldn't it?" -- to which my manager replied, "Most of us don't have the time to read all that. Just give me a cross-functional flowchart that explains how you actually get it done, and who helps you with all the stuff." :mad:

heh.. those managers. :bonk:

So. In regards to ISO/TS-16949 -- Just wondering if anyone with some time on their hands has completed a turtle diagram, or a cross-functional flowchart for the PPAP process? :) :) :)

Just a quick thought, can you not just take the PPAP requrements submission list (not sure what page it is on, I have no PPAP manual at hand) and add a column for responsible and get this monkey off your back?

There are some pointers here
Elsmar Cove Free Files (http://elsmar.com/pdf_files/) directory in the PPAP files
and
The APQP Process (http://elsmar.com/APQP/) slide presentation here.

How do you compile your PPAP now, do you have a timetable, checklist? How do you ensure that you have the documents?

The PPAP should be a conclusion to the work of the project manager.

I know, I know, we do it with out them understanding, this though is why they never learn, and why you live the documents rather than the documents being living :bonk:

Soooooo true Howard. Yeah, a couple of my friends read this post and didn't stop laughing till this morning when they called me.

The best part? heh.. Deadline is close of business today to have it done. Isn't that so typical???

Anyway, I don't see anyone volunteering -- so I guess I better get started on this project.

:truce: In regards to ISO/TS-16949 -- Just wondering if anyone with some time on their hands has completed a turtle diagram, or a cross-functional flowchart for the PPAP process?

I pretty much live and breathe the AIAG 7-pak.. but I just got asked to try to provide an OVERVIEW with outlines the 18/22 points, what they are, who does them, what forms are required.. :nopity:

I tried to answer with, "well that would be redundant to type another AIAG 7-pak, wouldn't it?" -- to which my manager replied, "Most of us don't have the time to read all that. Just give me a cross-functional flowchart that explains how you actually get it done, and who helps you with all the stuff." :mad:

heh.. those managers. :bonk:

So. In regards to ISO/TS-16949 -- Just wondering if anyone with some time on their hands has completed a turtle diagram, or a cross-functional flowchart for the PPAP process? :) :) :)

It appears your manager wants to be more proactive then you may realize. In my experience over the years with multiple companys, it's not the content of the PPAP that is the question,it's the process.
The turtle diagram is an excellent tool for doing this. Completion of the turtle will lead to the development of the process definition. Too save time you can prepare the diagram, noting the inputs,outputs & activities and then get together as a team and define the process.

Well gee whiz guys.. you all got quiet. I got a WI that is getting closer.

Purpose: To define the method to determine if all customer engineering design record and specification requirements are understood, and the process has the potential to produce product consistently meeting those requirements during an actual production run at the quoted production rate.

Scope: Applies to the Project Launch Coordinator, members of the product launch team and/or other designated representatives.

Mostly.. I used infomation from the AIAG manual to create an overview.. and I like what we have there..

1. General
1.1. It is the responsibility of the Project Launch Coordinator to ensure that the appropriate planning activities and proper forms are used during the production part approval process.

Ø The requirements for Chrysler, Ford and General Motors are specified in the AIAG “Production Part Approval Process” document.

Ø Requirements of other customers not subscribing to the requirements of the PPAP Manual are processed according to their individual “Supplier Quality Assurance Manuals,” or similar documentation.

1.2. This process is applicable to the following situations:

Ø New part or product; i.e., a specific part, material, or color not previously supplied to the specific customer,

Ø Correction of a discrepancy on a previously submitted part,

Ø Product modified by an engineering change to design records, specifications, or materials, and

Ø Any situations required by section I.3 of the AIAG “Production Part Approval Process” document.

2. PPAP Process Requirements
NOTE: The following is an outline of the process that is documented fully in the AIAG “Production Part Approval Process” document. Page/Section numbers are listed with each paragraph for easy cross-reference to the guidance documentation.

2.1. Design Records of Saleable Product (I.2.2.1, p3)

Ø Where the design record; e.g., CAD data, part drawings, and/or specifications are in electronic format, we submit a hard copy; e.g., pictorial, geometric dimensioning and .. blah blah blah..


Now the hard part.. the original problem.. trying to nail down how the PPAP is actually created, burped and diapered.

(Please see attachment "For Discussion.doc" and let's talk, ok?)

I like your process flow chart (map?) approach.



Two things amuse me



1) Your box says DFMEA (if available). Has anyone ever got one from the customer ever?



2) Notice how less than 20% of this PPAP process belongs to Quality. This may open some eyes and move PPAP out of the Quality Ghetto (or not). Lots of other folks are involved to support a PPAP. Is this a reality where you work, or a desired future state? I bet the burden still falls heavily on Quality when it gets late or goes wrong.



We use software in a checklist format for PPAP documentation/Control. There are a series of questions such as "Is the PFMEA complete?" A No answer generates an action item with an owner and due date. We can generate a % complete report as well as link to MS Project to show a timeline. Our PPAP WI basically says, use the software. A separate matrix shows how TS/QS requirements are met in the software.



I think you are definitely on the right track, and hope you do have a team supporting PPAP.

Several smiles here, when I read your reply..

DFMEA.. hMm.. not sure.. seems like once maybe??... but I had to just BEG for them.

Cross-functional?.. yes. very much so.. and that is pretty much the real thing.. I just have not nailed down the order that it actually happens.. and what if anything depends on what.

The software sounds interesting.. shareware?.. download free trail?.. anything?

Well gee whiz guys.. you all got quiet. I got a WI that is getting closer.

Purpose: To define the method to determine if all customer engineering design record and specification requirements are understood, and the process has the potential to produce product consistently meeting those requirements during an actual production run at the quoted production rate.

Scope: Applies to the Project Launch Coordinator, members of the product launch team and/or other designated representatives.




I am sorry but to me this appears to be a beauracratic pursuit to ensure that the 19 pieces of paper, including the 6,7,8 or more with a number and N/A on it fits into the binder.

I don't see how a procedure can "determine if all customer engineering design record and specification requirements are understood"
This is not the responsibility of the PPAP, if it is not performed well before the trial run then you are in a big problem.
I do not see how any WI on PPAP can ignore the fact that the PPAP is a direct result of the APQP process and is in fact the reports on the sucess of this process.

Is your managers case that he needs to be able to use the jargon with some modicum of understanding or does he really want to know?
Is he a member of the APQP team?
If a list of the 19 pieces of paper and the person that is responsible for them is all he wants, you have done it very well but if more then maybe he should have some training as to what an FMEA is, what is Gauge R&R etc etc.
To put each of the items as a square in a chart might make him feel connected but tho make a flow chart of the meaning and understanding of Gauge R&R seems to me to be futile.

Mybe I am ranting a bit but it seems to me that you are being expected to do a useless task

It appears your manager wants to be more proactive then you may realize. In my experience over the years with multiple companys, it's not the content of the PPAP that is the question,it's the process.
The turtle diagram is an excellent tool for doing this. Completion of the turtle will lead to the development of the process definition. Too save time you can prepare the diagram, noting the inputs,outputs & activities and then get together as a team and define the process.

To Sam, to Howard: Somewhere between your quote, and his comments is reality.

I like the project, just aren't there yet.

The software sounds interesting.. shareware?.. download free trail?.. anything?
The software is Cebos MQ1, unfortunately it is not shareware, it is a large suite and is expensive. www.cebos.com (http://www.cebos.com)

It should be possible to build something pretty nice in Access if you have some moderate database skills. We had built our own home brew APQP/PPAP system years ago before we bought Cebos. We found we were turning into programmers, not Quality Improvers.

A few hours searching the web for APQP software will reveal what you might want to include in a home made system.

It may even be do-able in Excel. As many people point out here on the Cove, expensive software is not required. Sometimes more understanding comes from building your own solution.

I'd be happy to share more details if there is interest

Caster