Hi!

I would just like to ask who is going to audit internal quality audit team during the internal quality audit week. should they be included in the audit plan?

Thank you.

The standard in section 8.2.2 requires that the audit programmme "shall be planned, taking into consideration the status and importance of the processes and areas to be audited". So not all areas need be audited, only those areas/functions/processes that require it according to criteria such as their status, importance, previous poor performance etc.

In my organization we wished to know if our internal audit team was performing effectively. Myself and the other lead auditor, who normally take part in internal audits, observed the three internal audit teams conducting their audits, from initial planning through interviews and evidence gathering to final write up. Using the observations we were able to locate several areas for improvement, not just for individuals but cross-team habits. These were habits that lay unseen during the hectic rush of an audit, where only the final output, the written reports, was scrutinised. The process itself had never been observed. The improvement areas discovered included:
How to plan effectively
Method of effective questioning
To limit the amount/size of processes assigned to a team

We approached the exercise as a way of ascertaining whether the team were demonstrating the required competencies, rather than as a process to be audited. In a sense the internal audit teams output are always being audited for effectiveness by the section managers whose processes they are auditing, at the final audit meeting by the lead auditors and the rest of the audit team, at Management Review and by the external accreditation auditor.

you can assign one of the 'senior' auditor from the pool of auditors to audit the IQA.
I would also want to clarify the audit areas that u need to audit in the IQA: is it processes included in conducting the Internal Qaulity Audit?

Also, is this the first time that IQA team will conduct the audit? if yes, then i think the scope of audit for the IQA team will only be limited in the process on how they would conduct the audit. i.e.: checking on audit trails, and quality forms are all in placed.

If u mean the process of report writing, i think that must be taken up in the wash up meeting of the auditors.

Clarifications
1. Are we going to include the inter quality audit process in the Audit Plan?
2. If so, are we also going to make an Audit Report? from the findings of the internal quality audit process?

Sorry if I don't get it easily, It is our second time to have an internal quality audit. We are already certified.

Thank you

Kitty,

we have a part of our audit team looking at the Quality Dept review IA, and then look at the effectiveness of IA in our management review meetings also.

Finally, we look to the 3rd party registrar to audit our IA and give us an idea of how effective they are.

The internal audits must be part of the audit plan and should be audited on an annual basis.

The auditor assigned to audit this clause should not be responsible for the audit program and should not audit his/her own work.

An audit report on 8.2.2 should also be written.

The results of the audit on the internal audit should be discussed along with other audits at the management review.

Danny

Hi!

I would just like to ask who is going to audit internal quality audit team during the internal quality audit week. should they be included in the audit plan?

Thank you.
You have the followig options:

1. Use an employee (or employees) who are trained and exoerienced auditors to do the job. If you take this option, you might find some idiot asking, "but who audits the auditors who audit the auditors?"

2. Use the registrar's "audit" to do the job. In this case the registrar may be considered as having stepped over the line of independence as it is part of the QMS that it is supposed to certify.

3. Engage an outside person/ consultant who is experienced/ recognized or whatever to do it. This has the advantage that you may obtain added value in the way your internal audits are subsequently done.

4. Ignore the problem. If your audits are ineffective the registrar ought to see it as the ineffective auditing would show up in weak/ noncompliant systems throughout the company.

5. Remember, a management review, if effectively performed will reveal the efficacy of your internal auditing system. And, in the more progressive firms with which I have been involved over the last 20 years or so as a consultant, top management itself has been trained in auditing methods (by me).

I have one of the trained internal auditors audit the internal audit process.

My audit schedule goes out 6 months (in relation to our surveillance audits) and I always have the audit for internal audits performed the month before our surveillance audit.

Another thing I do since we have 17 trained internal auditors. Is I have 1 individual that doesn’t perform audits for the 6 months, then they audit the last 6 months of audits. Then for the next 6 months I pick a different person that will audit the next 6 months of audits. The nice thing about that is someone gets to skip internal auditing for 6 months (because we all know it can be a pain, especially if you wear multiple hats were you work) other then the internal audit for internal audits.

The internal audits must be part of the audit plan and should be audited on an annual basis.

Not always. I think that this is assuming a number of things, including a certain size and resources. I believe it depends, as always, upon factors such as the size of the organisation, the number of auditors, who holds the management rep. position and how results are reported through to top management. If it were always to be done, then there would be a specific requirement in the Standard for it. There isn't.

For example, consider small organisations where the MD or one of two owners is also the principal auditor. In such a case, it's unlikely to be a valuable use of resources to audit their audit program.

Jason's plan sounds excellent - but is also for a firm with 17 internal auditors.