I recently met one of my ex colleague who was a manufacturing test engineer. He has made a “career change” and moved to a full time academic position. He made that choice because he wanted to. Not because he could not find another engineering job.He mentioned that he did not find this change very difficult. This was actually surprising to me.

I thought why not ask our “Covers” about their experience, opinion about career changes from

Industry to Academic
and
Academic to Industry

(Assuming a minimum of 3~5 years of experience in one of the area before changing to the other)
Each of the area has its own pros and cons..
Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Govind.

I'm not sure how it impacts the thrust of your post, Govind, but in my neck of the woods (Chicago), most of the academic institutions of higher learning have put a "freeze" on hiring anyone except "stars" for tenure-track teaching positions. Instead, the institutions hire "adjunct" professors, who get low pay and no benefits.

My wife just finished her Masters in May at a respected private university. Fewer than half her instructors over the three years she spent in school were full-time employees of the university; the balance were "adjunct" status. One such adjunct professor was working at three separate schools within a 20-mile radius. My wife calulated the teacher could have netted more (by including travel time and expense) if she worked as a glorified "babysitter" at a local day care center for children.

Some of you folks out in Academia care to comment on this aspect of Govind's question?

Thanks Wes. While Iam also interested to know the pay and benefits comparing academia and industry, the first thing I would worry is fitting in the new area.I always thought working in an industry for few years and moving to academia is beneficial.

Example:If you are assigned to teach Industrial engineering, Quality Management, you can bring in your practical experience. This is will be more valuable for the students than hearing the theoretical side of the subject.

Those from academia to industry could be more effective in training and development.
Engineers are not necessarily trainers. They may be Subject Matter experts. Some organization train engineers on “Train the Trainers”. Here the academia folks can do very well as they are trained to design courses, develop lesson plan, and deliver in a consistent manner. They could fit well in R &D functions as well.

Does any one see different? Iam interested to know the issues they may face while transitioning into the new career (academia to industry - vice versa) and suggestion to counter.

Regards,
Govind.

Govind,
The educational facilities of this century merely deliver the curriculum (I don't necessarily agree with this). The students who attend colleges and universities realize this fact.
If you are considering a career in education, develop your delivery tools and techniques. You are basically presenting a series of lectures, it's really that simple.
Wallace.

My ultimate goal is to teach at the college level. Because of this I have to get started in my doctoral studies as soon as I can. I fugure they take you more serious if you can be called Doctor instead of Mister. I enjoy teaching and have over 30 years of instruction experience to fall back on.

Govind,
The educational facilities of this century merely deliver the curriculum (I don't necessarily agree with this). The students who attend colleges and universities realize this fact.
If you are considering a career in education, develop your delivery tools and techniques. You are basically presenting a series of lectures, it's really that simple.
Wallace.
Iam not (currently) planning to move to academia. However, I do enjoy training and development responsibility in our organization and conducting ASQ section refresher courses. Like any industrial project, teaching also require lots of planning and preparation, effective execution, follow-up and continual improvement. Getting Industry experienced professionals into academia will bring some fresh air and a practical touch, I guess.

I started this thread for the benefit of those who decided to walk across the aisle.
Regards,
Govind.

Govind,
I was offered (On a plate) a teaching position a few years ago.
The position would have been delivering a curriculum content of assessing quality and safety within the construction industry (My personal expertise).

I turned down the offer because, the culture of further education in this part of the world is not conducive to offering real world experiences to prospective students. Book knowledge is great and necessary yet, the balance of technical and practical knowledge isn't available within the current further educational facilities or delivered curriculum.
Coming originally from a construction trades background, I relate to this dilemma. I firmly believe that the original British system of apprenticeship would, be best applied to students who intend to study technical trades that, by nature cannot be validated without practical hands on experience.
Wallace.

Govind,
Our recent phone conversation indicated to me that, you are indeed a very multi skilled professional. This is exactly what is needed within further educational facilities. Your profile would be of great use to furthering or developing a curriculum based on a balanced approach to theory and practice.

Govind,
Our recent phone conversation indicated to me that, you are indeed a very multi skilled professional. This is exactly what is needed within further educational facilities. Your profile would be of great use to furthering or developing a curriculum based on a balanced approach to theory and practice.
Wallace,
Thanks. Iam currently working on the approach you mentioned for a Lean-Six sigma BOK. I see this area fast expanding. You may see some of my efforts from the thread:
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9236
Once, I reach a reasonable point, I will run it in Cove for feedback from our professionals.
Regards,
Govind.

Govind,
I was offered (On a plate) a teaching position a few years ago.
The position would have been delivering a curriculum content of assessing quality and safety within the construction industry (My personal expertise).

I turned down the offer because, the culture of further education in this part of the world is not conducive to offering real world experiences to prospective students. Book knowledge is great and necessary yet, the balance of technical and practical knowledge isn't available within the current further educational facilities or delivered curriculum.
Coming originally from a construction trades background, I relate to this dilemma. I firmly believe that the original British system of apprenticeship would, be best applied to students who intend to study technical trades that, by nature cannot be validated without practical hands on experience.
Wallace.

Wallace,
I was actually impressed with the New Grads from Canadian Universities.They are good at engineering fundamentals.They seem to be very independent and were able to run a project of their own within 3 years of experience. Your reply actually surprised me. If that is a fact,are they gaining their practical knowledge from the summer jobs?

Regards,
Govind.

Wallace,
I was actually impressed with the New Grads from Canadian Universities.They are good at engineering fundamentals.They seem to be very independent and were able to run a project of their own within 3 years of experience. Your reply actually surprised me. If that is a fact,are they gaining their practical knowledge from the summer jobs?

Govind,
Its hard to say without some hard numbers (Data) relating to Grads proving their worth in the real world.
I'm sure you'll agree however that, fundamentals as essential as they are, don't prepare Grads for the real world scenarios they are usually welcomed with when they get into environments such as auto and mass production in general.
Wallace.

Teaching Quality to college people is good, but would it tend to keep the skills and theory compartmentalized to management level personnel? Will they use what they learned, or adjust to the employers' existing methods and policies?

What about everyone else, and what about the small business sector, which makes up more than half of GDP?

I'll be happier when people start getting their Quality training before college.

My research showed that business clubs and classes are on the decline in high school. DECA, the club for building business ownership and marketing skills, is giving way to VICA, which is bent on making good employees. This may be happening partly because, with shrinking budgets and standardized testing pressures, school districts are assigning the job to vocational or technical schools. There, the focus is more on occupation--usually blue collar.

Mind you, they need it too. And VICA sells a very good, 17-module program that could be used in many venues. It includes a curriculum and instructor guide. ASQ Press offers a great book for teaching the basic tools to elementary age students.

But apparently teachers are not taught these things or quality management tools and theories, and do not understand their value. I am pretty sure that the Masters in Education Administration also does not include quality management; I see from my inside peek that the awareness level is very low.

This is no surprise when we recall that the pressure is on always raising standardized test scores.

It's too bad too, because Gallup polled high schoolers and found about 70% want to start their own businesses someday. Without early training, even if it is just in finding good help resources, the deck is stacked against them indeed. Bankruptcy is very bad, with or without high test scores.

When I get my way I will see math, writing skills and research techniques being taught in a business-based curriculum that introduces the seven Quality tools as a way to solve problems and measure effectiveness. It's not brain surgery.

:soap:

I hope to make the cross over again . I was a secondary teacher for about 8 yrs and now have 22 yrs in Quality. I plan on starting to earn my M.S. in Quality and teach on the college level. From my experience and from what recent people have told me, there is still a need for good teachers in college.

Mooser

I was also a secondary educator for 4 years and had I stuck it out, I would be earning almost double what I make as a Q.A. Manager - probably retired as well!

I believe the locale you live in should be considered when making the transition, if wages are a prime reason for change.

Sue

I have the best of both worlds - work during the day, and teach evenings. Evening schools and internet-based schools generally need instructors on technical topics (I can say if you know stats/math and have a City University near you, they need you). I find it rewarding to try to pass on the knowledge, and the extra money (not a lot, but not chump change either) is helpful.

Thanks to all the contributors..Interesting discussion. I guess There are already few planning to cross the aisle!

Steve,
You are in both worlds.What do you think are the most important factors to consider before crossing the aisle (both directions).

All I can think of is: Recognition, passion, Job enrichment/ enlargement,Opportunity to serve the community, Profession,job security, Increase in salary, Work flexibility,Vacation flexibility, etc. I understand it is a personal choice. But there are something very important to consider before making such major change.
Can anyone suggest?
Thanks,
Govind.

Thanks to all the contributors..Interesting discussion. I guess There are already few planning to cross the aisle!

Steve,
You are in both worlds.What do you think are the most important factors to consider before crossing the aisle (both directions).

All I can think of is: Recognition, passion, Job enrichment/ enlargement,Opportunity to serve the community, Profession,job security, Increase in salary, Work flexibility,Vacation flexibility, etc. I understand it is a personal choice. But there are something very important to consider before making such major change.
Can anyone suggest?
Thanks,
Govind.
I think the most important factors are personal. Do you like to teach? It certainly is a legacy of sorts, and I remember the people who taught me things over the years. It also is a different environment than the day-to-day work grind. I suppose academia can be a "grind" also, but being a branch campus I am pretty much given a syllabus to cover, a text book, and told to go forth.

There is also the challenge that in the environment I teach in (open admission, business students) that I am teaching these folks to be managers, not engineers or statisticians. So I do have to keep in mind - what would I want my manager to know?

For a period of time a few years back, City University shifted to using instructors from a local community college, but it didn't work out very well. The instructors were apparently purely academic, and had not worked in the fields they were teaching (such as stats) and were not fairing well with the adult students. I ended up taking over several courses from them

An interesting experience - I was teaching graduate economics, and there was an appendix on linear regression in one chapter. Several students asked if I could go over it, so I did. As I was explaining the R-squared calculation, I went through its limitations and said although a lot of courses seem to stress it, the R-squared doesn't tell you much directly, and you really have to look at the harder to calculate (but fairly easy to automate) prediction intervals. The students broke up laughing. Apparently their previous instructor for quantitative methods made them memorize the R-squared formula, and they had to do tons of problems calculating R-square, and had not a clue as to what it meant, and had highly suspected it didn't mean much.

So job experience can be useful in the transition to academia, but I would suggest looking carefully at the school you are considering to see how they balance practical versus theoretical. You need a good mix of both, not all one or the other. And the practitioner can help a lot with the students with on the job insight.

I teach (adjunct) and work in industry. I have to agree with an earlier post that adjunct faculty do not get paid well. SO, if you are making a career move, beware. Without that PhD, you will not receive the compensation that you are used to in industry. My full-time pay, if I were full-time adjunct (which is all I can be with ONLY a Master's) is about 1/2 of what I make full-time outside of academia.

I also teach adjunct at our local community college and work in industry. As far as pay goes, I guess there's quite a variety in both industry pay and academics. I happen to love teaching, especially being able to bring practical application to the theory. (I've been following the SOPK post too... guess I agree that you gotta have both theory and experience - I see it at both work and school all the time!) I believe that without the experience you're really very limited in your ability to teach.

As far as reasons to make the change from industry to teaching - if you don't love teaching and you don't love your subject matter, then don't go. Sure, there may be other reasons, like $ or schedules to consider, but you won't be doing your students any favors. Think about all the instructors you had over the years and who left a real impression on you. The only ones that stick out in my mind, for the good, are the ones who were passionate about the subject and really wanted to share what they knew with their classes.

I've had many instructors who were subject matter experts, but couldn't teach. And I've had teachers with little "real world" experience to back up their theory. Neither were very effective.

If you think you might like to teach - check out your local college and give a semester to adjunct teaching and see how it goes.

As for moving from academics to industry - I WISH I could get my hands on a good statistician :-)

And as for teaching it before college - I'm a firm believer in that. Just ask my three homeschooled teens! ... guess I should be looking for an opportunity in secondary education if I really want to make a difference - meanwhile I'll at least work on the ones I brought into the world!! :cool:

I too taught evenings at a local Technical College. Taught SPC to adults in an industry training class, preparing them as supervisors for a major corporation. My wife also teaches medical classes, such as insurance coding, and phlebotomy,evenings at the same school, but different branch to adults. She worked over 20 years in medical clinics. It is an enjoyable experience and a need for people with actual experience. Pay is fairly good too, we are both hired on temporary contracts.

I have been in Industry for over 27 years and have started teaching from 1991, first in a college - to Post Graduate Students of analytical chemistry and later at an Institute - to Post Graudate Students of Environmental Management. Both the institutions are affiliated to the Univeristy of Pune . Now I am an Adjunct Professor and am a member of the Board of Studies in Management of the University of Pune. I have a hectic five days a week work at my office (with almost 10 days of tour within India and the Asia Pacific region). I teach on Saturdays, if required on Sundays and after office hours during the week days; I do not charge any fee (even though the Institution is willing to pay). I do this because I love the subject and I believe that I have a responsibility towards the society - to share my knowledge with young students. I feel good interacting with young and fertile minds after the routine at the office. It is a refreshing feeling..no money can bring that. To answer Govind's question, I believe that a career change over may not be difficult if you are a good manager, thorough with your subject and if you are a good communicator. Ramakrishnan

I seem to be the only one here that is primarily in the academic circle (college level physics, plus the odd math, computer and stats class), so I have a little different perspective. I am toying with the idea of going over to the industrial side, but haven't made the leap yet. I got interested in the whole “quality thing” when a friend in industry introduced me to DOE and I saw the power of the techniques and the lack of any such knowledge in academic science circles. Eventually it led me to the CRE & CQE certifications.

The academic setting certainly has some advantages, but often with corresponding disadvantages. Also, it can make a tremendous difference whether the position is at a prestigious PhD granting school (better pay, little teaching, lots of pressure to produce research) or a community college (little pay, lots of teaching, little opportunity for research even if you wanted to).

* In academics, you generally get the summer off - which you can view as either a great vacation or a forced 3 month lay-off each year.
* Vacations tend to follow the kids' vacations and are fairly generous, but it is very difficult to get any days off when class is in session, so forget about a four day cruise in February or long weekend if a relative gets married in September.
* Generally you get a 1 year contract, so "2 weeks' notice" is not a fear. One the other hand, most hiring is done in the mid to late spring, for the next year, so any changes need to be planned well in advance.
* Hours are a bit more flexible, so if you want to leave at 3:00 pm no one will probably notice or care. But hardly anyone does just 40 hr per week, and there is no overtime pay when you have take grading home in the evenings or weekends.
* Decisions generally proceed at a leisurely pace. You know months or years ahead of time what you will be teaching and what committees you will be serving on. But you can also wait months or years for decisions on raises, funding for projects, etc.
* You are more autonomous in academic settings. You can try new software or new approaches in the classroom or new research ideas if they seem interesting to you. If you have tenure, it is almost impossible to get fired if you are even partial competent. But since people are independent-minded, it is hard to make dramatic institution-level changes. What leverage do you have over an employee who refuses to follow a new directive when he can’t be fired???
* Finally, many people find teaching rewarding and that is a great reason to be in teaching. But you have to expect to get paid much less than a person with similar education would make in industrial settings. It isn't unusual for starting PhD's to get under $40,000. It is certainly possible to make $100,000+, but the overall average of all university faculty is about $65,000.

If the right opportunity came along, I would seriously consider switching to industry. I’m sure part of it is the “grass is greener on the other side” syndrome.

Anyway, that’s my $0.02. I have a headache and need to get some rest! Catch you later. As Steve said, it ultimately comes done to personallity. Do what you enjoy and everything else will hopefully fall into place.

Tim F

Very good (and interesting) reply from everyone. Iam yet to summarize the gist of these 20 over posting.

One thing I quickly understood by reviewing all the post is:
Better Salary is not a driving factor to enter academia. I think it is mainly "Passion to teach".
Continue with your views. We are listening.
Thanks,
Govind.

I seem to be the only one here that is primarily in the academic circle (college level physics, plus the odd math, computer and stats class), so I have a little different perspective.
[deleted for space]
* Finally, many people find teaching rewarding and that is a great reason to be in teaching. But you have to expect to get paid much less than a person with similar education would make in industrial settings. It isn't unusual for starting PhD's to get under $40,000. It is certainly possible to make $100,000+, but the overall average of all university faculty is about $65,000.

If the right opportunity came along, I would seriously consider switching to industry. I’m sure part of it is the “grass is greener on the other side” syndrome.

Anyway, that’s my $0.02. I have a headache and need to get some rest! Catch you later. As Steve said, it ultimately comes done to personallity. Do what you enjoy and everything else will hopefully fall into place.

Tim F
The salary levels quoted are discouraging when you consider a high school teacher with a Phd in Chicago suburbs draws $100,000 and, for all intents and purposes, has the equivalent of tenure, usually only able to be fired for moral turpitude.

The professors in my circle of friends teach at top-level schools (the kind that grant Phd degrees) and, because they are near my age or older, at the top of their departments. Combining book royalties, consulting fees, and salary, they take in low to middle six-figure incomes (not as much as the football or basketball coach, however.)

Developing requests for research grant money is a "continual improvement" project for them. Politicking with corporations and foundations for that money is also time consuming - they don't show up at banquets and other society events for fun - they are working on networking for grant money.

I quit academia in the sixties when I got caught in the switches by picking the wrong side in a departmental feud before I got tenure. I never regretted leaving, but I do miss the energy of the students. Today, all the expertise I had for my field back then and five dollars might get you a cup of coffee at a Starbucks, but the barrista will think the tip was stingy. Advances in all the sciences in those forty years are absolutely amazing.

My vision is to be teaching when I get to my 'fifties'<I am in late thirties>. I believe there is less stress in teaching than being in most types of industries. Therefore, I want to be on a more relaxing job when I get there....50. However, I would like to get started teaching on colleges continuing education programs as soon as possible. I have friends on the academics (full-time) and they all complain about the pay. I guess teaching is more about self-satisfaction and self-realization than money. Although by combining consulting, writing books, and teaching you can make decent money if you are a recognized 'guru' or come from a prominent college like 'Harvard'. :ca:

I have also taught a couple of evening classes including one class at the MBA level as an adjunct professor. Normally a master's degree at minimum is required to be an adjunct professor. If you want to teach full time then you better have a PhD. I know someone who switched into teaching later in his career. He had a PhD, started as an adjunct professor at minimal pay (currently about $3000 per class), took all the evening and Saturday classes and classes that the full time did not want to teach until he finally became a full time professor. He also eventually had to get a book published as part of his full time professorship. Hours are long and pay is small so teaching better be your passion and you better have an understanding spouse.

One thing that I have not really seen mentioned so far is that colleges are also businesses that must generate revenue. There can be pressure to make sure the students "get the grades" since drop outs do not make money for the university.

You also do not get to pick your students. Some come reasonably prepared and are fun to teach. Others just want the grade and are not interesting in the subject since some classes are required. Some just do not have the math skills to learn the more difficult concepts. This is especially true with quantitative and statistics type courses in the MBA program where some students are unprepared for the extensive math since it was not required in their undergraduate courses.

If you want to teach, try to hook up with a community college or smaller university in your area. If you like it then go for it, if not at least you know what is like.

Bill Pflanz

I would love to teach. At some point in my life (though likely not anytime soon), I would love to stand in front of a class full of 16-year-olds with chalk in my hand, and start explaining probability - or limits - or, better yet, first-order reaction rate equations. I doubt I'd ever make it to college or university-level teaching (definitely not university, as I currently have no desire to get my Ph.D *or* do research), but highschool would be so much fun, I think.

For now, I'll play in industry for a while and see how that pans out.

I would love to teach. .... I doubt I'd ever make it to college or university-level teaching (definitely not university, as I currently have no desire to get my Ph.D *or* do research), but highschool would be so much fun, I think.

I researched what it would take to become a high school teacher in Ohio a few years ago. If you have a BS degree but it was not as an Education major then you will be required to take 2 years of additional coursework in education related courses. The college I contacted required it to be full time not part time or evening college. You would also have to pass the tests for the teaching credentials.

Many of the classes were related to dealing with problem students, drug counseling, preparing lesson plans and other non-subject matter courses. If I understand the requirements correctly, none of the PhDs that have been responding here would qualify to teach a simple math class without this two years of study.

Bill Pflanz

My sister-in-law has a master's degree in education from a respected university. She taught for 20 years in private schools in California. When she moved back to Illinois, she could not get a teaching certificate for Illinois public schools without going back to school for more coursework. Sometimes, bureaucracies put up barriers for entry which defy logic.

What was even more amazing is that the same bureaucracy that did that was accrediting non-teaching bachelor's degree holders to teach in the same public schools (albeit at temporary teacher pay rates) while they went to school simultaneously to take the same courses my sister-in-law had to take without being allowed to teach, even at temporary teacher pay grade.

I never got a full explanation, but apparently they wanted to punish her for having taught in a private system and determined she would have to "unlearn" stuff before she could face a classroom.

I note, also, that our community and state college systems in Illinois also provide "extra credit" in the job hiring process for veterans and handicapped (is it politically correct to use that term?) folks, which means non vets, etc. start off with a negative value in the process which may be impossible to overcome.

Note: this post doesn't need a reply - it's just :soap:

What was even more amazing is that the same bureaucracy that did that was accrediting non-teaching bachelor's degree holders to teach in the same public schools (albeit at temporary teacher pay rates) while they went to school simultaneously to take the same courses my sister-in-law had to take without being allowed to teach, even at temporary teacher pay grade.


You must have made a mistake. I believe you meant to post this comment in the Elsmar Cove Humour Thread. Someone just quoted Captain Yossarian in another thread. Maybe he really exists, works for the school board and you did not recognize the Catch 22. :lol:

Bill Pflanz