One of our potential customers has visited us and performed an audit on our Business Management System. Our BMS (or Quality Manual as many people still call it) does not paraphrase the standard. What we do say in the manual, is our commitment to the standards. This can be found in the scope and in the quality policy.
The customer has now given us a major observation note for not having a documented commitment to a portion or to all of the following paragraphs:
4.1, 4.2.1, 4.2.4, 5.1.D, 5.1.E, 5.3.C, 5.3.D, 5.3.E, 5.4.2.A, 5.4.2.B, 5.5.2, 5.5.3, 5.6.2, 5.6.3.C, 6.1.A, 6.1.B, 6.2.1, 6.2.2.A, 6.2.2.B, 6.2.2.C, 6.2.2.D, 6.2.2.E, 6.3.A, 6.3.B, 6.3.C, 6.4, 7.1.C, 7.2.1.A, 7.2.1.B, 7.2.2, 7.2.3.a, 7.2.3.B, 7.2.3.C, 7.4.1.A,. 7.4.1.B, 7.4.3, 7.5.1, 7.5.1.G, 7.5.1.H, 7.5.1.I, 7.5.1.1.A, 7.5.1.1.B, 7.5.1.2, 7.5.1.3, 7.5.1.4, 7.5.2, 7.5.2.A, 7.5.2.B, 7.5.2.C, 7.5.2.D, 7.5.2.E, 7.5.3, 7.5.3.A, 7.5.3.B, 7.5.3.C, 7.5.3.D, 7.5.4, 7.5.5.A, 7.5.5.B, 7.5.5.C, 7.5.5.D, 7.5.5.E, 7.5.5.F, 7.6, 7.6.A, 7.6.B, 7.6.C, 7.6.D, 7.6.E, 7.6.F, 8.1.A, 8.2.1, 8.2.2, 8.2.4, 8.2.4.1.B, 8.2.4.1.C, 8.2.4.1.D, 8.2.4.2, 8.3, 8.4.D, 8.5.2.H, 8.5.3.C, 8.5.3.D, 8.5.3.E.
We are accredited to ISO9001:2000 and QS9000 since years. Now we are in the progress of adding AS9100B.

I have expressed my point of view to this auditor. I am particularly not happy about adopting the legacy of a bureaucratic system as it is still seen in many industries. I also said, that there is no requirement in the standard to document all commitments and list them individually. A commitment to comply to the standards should be sufficient.

What is your opinion on this subject? How would you argue this with a potential customer?

Garry,

I cannot believe that in this day and age there are still auditors trapped in a time warp. There is NO requirement to paraphrase the standard. What did the auditor say when you confronted him?

I would bring this up with your certification auditor (registrar company) and get their feedback.

What qualifications has this third party auditor got?
:mad: This type of nonsense drives me insane.

Garry,

I cannot believe that in this day and age there are still auditors trapped in a time warp. There is NO requirement to paraphrase the standard. What did the auditor say when you confronted him?

I would bring this up with your certification auditor (registrar company) and get their feedback.

What qualifications has this third party auditor got?
:mad: This type of nonsense drives me insane.

OH BOY!:mad: Where are these auditors coming from?:confused: Appeal, Appeal, Appeal! Do not give in to this. I am not going to lay down for their opinion or interpretation of the standard any longer. I have rewritten our manual to please the auditors twice...no more. Good luck!

Hi Greg

When I confronted him, he said, reference to the standard in a QMS would not be sufficient. He spent 2 days here with us, his audit report is a one-page document. Half of this page is taken up with the numbers above. He also said, he is a qualified and certified lead auditor and a qualified Quality Manager. I really wonder what these qualifications are worth.
In his audit report there is not one good word (the positives) eventhough he had plenty of good things to say. The audit report does also not make reference to a "documented commitment" in the QMS (BMS)....let alone did he mention the QMS (BMS). A very biased report.
At the end of the day, it is a potential customer and I had to be careful with my wording and confrontation. I guess, he just wanted to spend enough time here in OZ and justify something for the company he is representing. Professionalism comes second.

He is now asking us for feedback and action plans. Any ideas, how this can be tackled without upseting him?

Hi Greg
At the end of the day, it is a potential customer and I had to be careful with my wording and confrontation. I guess, he just wanted to spend enough time here in OZ and justify something for the company he is representing. Professionalism comes second.
He is now asking us for feedback and action plans. Any ideas, how this can be tackled without upseting him?

Garry,
I have to ask WHAT country is this guy from, if not Australia? There should be a standards appeal board. I am sorry mate but at this stage I do not have any come back. I'll ask around. I have my annual audit in six weeks and as yet have not done any internal audits this year. So, I have to get a move on.
FYI, we do not mention ANY clauses from the standard in our Quality Manual nor do we reference the standard in our general documentation.

Do I understand correctly? This fellow says, in effect, your Registrar (who approved your organization for registration to one or more Standards) is either an idiot or a crook?

I'm sorry to say this is a political matter that needs to be settled at a higher level, or, failing that, you may be justified in refusing to do business with any organization with which you cannot agree on Quality Standard understanding and implementation. Imagine the hassle the first time this guy declares your goods or services "nonconforming."

Without performing the audit myself, I can't say whether this guy is correct, mistaken, or looking for a bribe. I tend to believe the folks who performed your registration audits had their heads screwed on straight and you didn't bribe them to get a certificate of registration.

Suggestion:
This is the time to escalate the situation up to your own executive suite. They will be able to make a determination whether it is in the organization's interest to

kowtow to this petty tyrant
buck the problem to his superiors
drop the prospect
In my interpretation, there is a world of difference in how I deal with a prospect versus an established customer. I have always maintained it is as important to screen potential customers as to screen potential suppliers. Some "high maintenance customers" are better off in your competitor's portfolio than yours.

Please tell us how it all turns out.

Wes,

Well said! :applause: My sentiments exactly but unfortuantely I did not express them as well as you.

P.S: This guy (Third Party auditor) is still annoying me hours after I read the initial post.

Garry,
I have to ask WHAT country is this guy from, if not Australia? There should be a standards appeal board. I am sorry mate but at this stage I do not have any come back. I'll ask around. I have my annual audit in six weeks and as yet have not done any internal audits this year. So, I have to get a move on.
FYI, we do not mention ANY clauses from the standard in our Quality Manual nor do we reference the standard in our general documentation.

Greg

This auditor was from (not from Australia) ....and maybe, I shouldn't mention here were he was from!! Good luck to your audit in six weeks. We have had our QS9000 audit 4 weeks ago, with no issues what so ever on the documentation side.

He is now asking us for feedback and action plans. Any ideas, how this can be tackled without upseting him?I'm afraid you'll have to upset him... If you fold in this situation you will keep having problems with him in the future. Wes said it well.

You will have to put your foot down sooner or later, and the sooner the better. First of all you need to ensure the support from your superiors. That done, the response should be that you do not accept the NC, if possible backed up with a letter of support from your registrar (They should support you. After all he is not only coming down on you, he is also saying that they did a poor job).

I would dearly like to hear the outcome. Good luck :agree:

P.s. Greg, I think it would be more prudent to ask what planet he came from... Just like you I didn't think they made them like this anymore :nope:

/Claes

He is now asking us for feedback and action plans. Any ideas, how this can be tackled without upseting him?
My kids are expert at doing exactly what I ask. Anyone with kids will know what I mean.

If you want to possibly do business, why not just take his list and create a 1 page cross reference to your BMS system, add a sentence similar to "My Company shows documented commitment to a portion or to all of the following paragraphs as above", have it signed by anyone walking by, and send it off to him.

Twenty minutes work to put the ball back in his court.

We had our largest customer issue a finding that said "information available but not posted" so we took a photo of the sign on the mens room and said "information now posted". We sent this in and never heard about it again.

BMS! Way to go. I try never to speak the word quality out loud at work, but I think it will take us years before my people get to your level of understanding.

Garry,

Registration under ISO 9K has no specific requirement for such a statement. Standards used for accreditation (ISO/IEC 17025 and 17020) do have specific requirements for a statement of compliance to the specific standard.

Push back on the auditor.

Hershal