Elsmar Cove Forums Index - Has Anyone Been "Outed" and Got in Trouble Over Comments Made in Their Posts?

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Has Anyone Been "Outed" and Got in Trouble Over Comments Made in Their Posts?
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Posted by: Caster

Hi Ho

I just looked back over some of my posts and worry that they could reflect badly on my company if taken out of this context.

I also think I could be easily identified from my profile and avatar.

I'm thinking of either toning down or going more stealthy in my profile.

As a quality geek I spend all my time on the 5% wrong and forget we have 95% right here. Our last audit showed this, we are getting a lot better. Unfortunately I only post about problems - so it looks negative.

Has anyone ever been called on the carpet for their posts?

Posted by: Wes Bucey

The short answer is yes.

The long answer is: no place in the internet is safe from prying eyes. If you write it, you can be sure someone will read it. If that person is agitated or motivated enough, it is do-able (not easy, but do-able) to ferret out the author, despite fancy screen names, etc. and retaliate.

There are some of us here in the Cove who have paid a penalty for being frank and honest and either "naming names" or leaving enough clues to identify the miscreants of whom we write.

Worse, some of us have paid an "invisible penalty" by losing opportunities and not knowing why. Most folks who torpedo you in retaliation are cowards, themselves, so they try to wreak their damage without leaving themselves open to countermeasures. Oftentimes, it's a subtle word or dig in the right place - "You're thinking of hiring John Doe as a consultant? I've heard some things that just don't seem right. Better safe than sorry. Perhaps you ought to look at someone else."

If you have any posts you'd like to "revise" - write directly to one of the Administrators (Marc, Atul, Howard, or Claes) who can help you deal with the situation.

Posted by: Marc

The only person I know of that 'for sure' got in trouble for posting in this forum was the ASQ person that Chris Paris of Oxebridge 'outted' in the ASQ forums.

However, it is a good idea to take into consideration what Wes says above especially if you post things you think 'might be taken the wrong way' by someone. On the other hand, some people are more paranoid than others.

If someone is worried, change your profile info and I can even change your user name. I've had a few people ask over the years. It's easy for me to do. Or, as Wes says, posts can be changed for up to about a week. After that editing is 'locked out'. The reason is there was a visitor who wiped out more than a year of posts - including attachments - and it took me a couple of days to get them all back. I didn't think it was quite 'fair' as he had downloaded many files from here and part of the idea is to share - including ideas. BUT - If someone does want a post edited, just let me know and I can make the change for you or I can open up editing for that person for a day.

Since the site hides all actual e-mail addresses (unless you put yours in a post, of course), there's no way for anyone to use that to identify you here.

Personally, if I wouldn't say it in public, I sure wouldn't post it on an open forum.

Posted by: WALLACE

I'll come out of my lurking position at this time (Against docs orders) to give my two cents worth.
I was severely reprimanded and given an ultimatum to cease and desist from making comments relating to a certain one of the so called big three or, I would unceremoniously demoted, thrown back into production and/or fired. The former was my final destination.
I'm a lot more happier now and the stress levels are almost non existent.
The Cove can and does give an authority to many comments, thesis, theories and actualities. It's a great voice to process management professionals yet, it can be the nail in your proverbial career coffin. I have been proud to be a part of this voice, regardless of the personal and career outcomes.
Wallace.

Posted by: Wes Bucey

Sorry to learn this, Wallace.

Other folks might get some valuable pointers from the ethics thread I started in terms of protecting yourself when a situation just seems to "beg" for exposure.

Ethics - moral law versus criminal law

Essentially, the point is this: you and your family should be paramount in your concern BEFORE you commit yourself to a course of action which can endanger them.

One thing everyone should avoid is trying to "impress" us here in the Cove or anyone in any other public Forum by sharing gossip which can be traced back to you to your detriment. Many organizations have people on the payroll who are more serious than a heart attack. I certainly had them when I was in the investment banking business (attorneys, private detectives, security experts, etc.) When the powers that be turn these attack dogs loose, it's no face off with a bully in a bar, it's a gang attack in the alley. I swear to you there are better and more effective ways to report on wrong doing than to spout off in a public Forum, thinking you are safe from detection. If you do so from a company computer, it's just plain suicide.

About 50 per cent of the time when folks ask my PRIVATE advice on a course of action, I send them off to a list of attorneys to interview to get counsel to protect themselves. The other 50 per cent of the time, I can see a combination of misunderstandings of the part of the "suspect" AND the "Reporter" and often can suggest a face-saving solution for everyone involved, sometimes even offering to act as the "honest broker" to arbitrate a situation.

Every case is NOT criminal, but even the ones that are just foolish carry a risk for the employee who may be dismissed by an employer who doesn't want reminders around of when he made a foolish error. The avowed reason may be different, but rest assured, it is retaliation nonetheless.

As the sergeant used to say after roll call on Hill Street Blues - "Hey! Be careful out there."

Posted by: Claes Gefvenberg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Personally, if I wouldn't say it in public, I sure wouldn't post it on an open forum.

Yes, that is a very good rule, and one I try to stick to as well.

/Claes

Posted by: Marc

My 'problem' is I'll say just about anything in public....

I'm sorry to hear about your experience, Wallace.

The only 'problem' I have had has been with Ford - one company that has a serious problem with this forum and has for a number of years. Once one of the higher ups even called a client of mine and told them to fire me as their consultant because of things I've said here. The Ford person did as one would expect and made veiled threats of pulling business from my client. My client read when I wrote and knew the situation and was very blunt to the Ford person - What I said was nothing less than the truth and he knew it. My client at the time told them no, that they would not fire me. Firing someone for giving an opinion about an actual event is nothing but spite.

In my case I didn't think of it as being 'outed', but was, in fact, no less than I expected considering a history of even working with Ford going back to the late 1980's in helping them solve internal problems. Ford cannot take any criticism without the need to lash out at any who dare criticise them. I have experienced Ford on the inside and out and my experiences were always 'difficult' to say the least.

But this is one of the things I dislike about some companies. Instead of addressing criticism, they attack those who criticise. Instead of concern for customers / suppliers and trying to address problems, they try to shoot the messenger. With an attitude like that, it is part of the reason the problems are deep and seldom solved.

Posted by: Marc

This isn't exactly related, but it does speak volumes about how different sites approach the internet. As most of you know, the Cove has been one of the most open and honest forums on the internet related to quality and associated topics. And I've always tried to protect members - the example of not allowing user e-mail addresses to be public is one, hiding IPs is another example. If there is one thing I do hope is that this thread doesn't inhibit people from posting. If it ever reaches the point where fear controls what is posted for fear of retribution, then a big purpose of the forum will cease to exist. I know a lot of people won't mention, much less publically criticise, their registrar because they fear retribution - a sad state to be in.

Quote:

http://news.com.com/MSN+bloggers+try...3-5477090.html
MSN bloggers try to foul up censorship tool
Published: December 3, 2004, 5:09 PM PST
By Graeme Wearden
Special to CNET News.com

MSN Spaces, Microsoft's new blogging service, has sparked a new game for some of its users: trying to circumvent its censorship controls.

BoingBoing, a popular Web log, on Friday reported that MSN Spaces is rejecting certain blog titles or URLs because they contain words that Microsoft has deemed inappropriate.

However, like so many censorship tools, Microsoft's is proving less than perfect.

BoingBoing found that all of the most obvious profanities fell foul of Microsoft's electronic sentries.

But the fun started for many users when blogs with tricky titles that resembled innocuous terms--think of a racier version of "tit for tat," for example--cleared Microsoft's censorship filters.

Getting a blog with a dirty name past the MSN Spaces controls may be fun, but it also illustrates the tensions between the traditionally free and open world of blogging and the more corporate approach of a software giant like Microsoft.

"If you can't speak freely on a blog, what's the point of having one?" BoingBoing pointed out.

These tensions are also apparent in Microsoft's approach to blog content. Unlike rival services such as Blogger, MSN Spaces forces new users to grant Microsoft permission to "use, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, edit, modify, translate and reformat" their blog postings.

Graeme Wearden of ZDNet UK reported from London.

Posted by: WALLACE

Sometimes; circumstances coerce us to make comments based on our value and belief systems.
I am now in a place of complete freedom to speak out and voice my opinion regarding my employer yet, the clear danger is, the threat of being ostracized within an organization. This is as good as being fired.
I like the fact that bloggs are the new way of gaining a voice of expression regardless of the subject.
Wallace.

Posted by: Marc

The big difference is if one is 'only' ostracized, they're at least getting a paycheck as opposed to being fired. But, you're correct - ostracism is painful.

Posted by: WALLACE

The funny thing about being outed: Many of the comments and visuals I have posted at the Cove have been exposed at the highest level at Ford.
I am fully aware that many Ford senior management personnel regularly lurk at the Cove and, I have been in many meetings where the Cove has been the primary focus for benchmarking regarding the contents of various threads. I just sat there and kept my mouth shut, until someone mentioned my name being associated with the Cove and then, I was indeed outed. Wow, it was a great stressful moment for me yet, I was delighted to be associated with the Cove. The hilarious thing about being outed was that, many senior management folk approached me afterwards to ask for "advice" on many of the threaded issues throughout the Cove, I still get a chuckle out of that to this day.
This is a great achievement for the Cove.
Wallace.

Posted by: Wes Bucey

That's an amazing story, Wallace, and one that would certainly get you a free drink at any aggregation of Quality professionals I know.

The pity of this entire thread is that Deming's observation about FEAR being a crippling ingredient in any organization is so true and rampant today, years after he made the observation.

It is discouraging that so many folks feel they can only gain power by CRUSHING people in no position to fight back. The only way the victims have of leveling the playing field is by conspiring with others to sabotage the bully in some way. Job actions like "blue flu" and "work to the book" are really subtle methods of sabotage to undermine the power of the bullies and make the bullies subject to the pressure of some more powerful entity (higher level manager, board of directors, stockholders, the public, etc.) The vicious cycle of FEAR continues and the organization is ultimately less efficient because of it.

The truly enlightened executives who counter rumors, suspicion, mistrust, and fear with open communication and TRUTH are few and far between. Often they are viewed as "weak" by their competitors within and without the organization and become the targets of campaigns to overthrow or otherwise usurp their power and influence.

Bottom line:
I'm afraid I have no concrete plan or path to help individual victims. I can only hope "some" executives (as lurkers, I suppose) read what I write and reconsider whether they might achieve more efficient and effective organizations by following the Deming precept to remove fear from the workplace.

Posted by: Marc

Folks, I see the server logs and I can tell you that all sorts of execs from all sorts of major companies 'monitor' the site from time to time. Often their servers id them. I have seen the ASQ execs 'monitoring' the forums.

However, when I say 'monitoring' I may be using the wrong word because I can't know exactly what they are here for. But I can see the threads they read if I want to take the time - which I have to admit I've never cared enough to take the time to do (nor do I care who's reading what). So - Maybe they're hear to learn, maybe they're here to see if anyone within their company is 'acting up'.

So yes - the forums here are quite well read. But - This makes 2 incidents where we know positively that someone was affected in their job because of posts here. I would like to hear of any other people where this has happened. I don't believe it's by any means 'common'.

On another note, for those of you who have a knowledge of automotive history, including labour relations, you probably remember that Henry Ford (yup, the original) had people who would visit workers homes and 'audit' them to make sure they were clean, that children were being 'raised right', etc. Oversight of employees by employers has long been in the history of manufacturing.

Posted by: WALLACE

A side bar to the issue of being outed.
There is a positive outcome to being associated with the Cove. I recently met with a colleague in Toronto and, when I mentioned that I had been a regular contributor at the Cove since 2000, he enthused and asked me many questions based on my involvement with the Cove.
The meeting almost became a job interview.

Wallace.

Posted by: Marc

Well, just goes to show you never know. I continue to be surprised at how many people are familiar with, or have at least heard of, the Cove.

Posted by: db

I mention the Cove from time to time at work. My boss finally got on and started poking around. Now he knows I'm not as smart as I look (?). Anytime he has a question, I just jump to the Cove and find the answer. I think he is thinking about firing me and hiring the Cove. He's just not sure how that will work with taxes, benefits and all.

Posted by: Sirlard

I use to post under my given name, but got nervous when a fellow corporate employee started questioning me about some of my posts. I changed to a pseudonym just to be safe. Since then the other employee was asked to resign, which he did.

Posted by: Bill Pflanz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, just goes to show you never know. I continue to be surprised at how many people are familiar with, or have at least heard of, the Cove.

I believe I have commented before that if you do a google on certain quality subjects than the Cove will be listed as a resource of information. Whether we like it or not, any contributor to the Cove could end up in an Internet search on quality. Think of it as our 15 minutes of fame.

Since google sorts their searches by the popularity of the site, the more Cove is used then the more those searching will find the site. I am using google in a generic way since any search engine could do the same thing.

Bill Pflanz

Posted by: Marc

As much as I hate to add to anyone's paranoia...

Quote:

From http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,...w=wn_tophead_3

Blogs May Be a Wealth Hazard

By Rachel Metz
02:00 AM Dec. 06, 2004 PT

What do a flight attendant in Texas, a temporary employee in Washington and a web designer in Utah have in common? They were all fired for posting content on their blogs that their companies disapproved of.

The rise of blogging over the past few years has, inevitably, given way to another phenomenon, as companies are forced to confront employees' easy access to ranting and raving about work in public online forums like Blogger and LiveJournal.

While some companies like Sun Microsystems and Microsoft express blog-friendliness, for employees who are unaware of their company's stance on the practice or working at firms without clear policies, the consequences of posting work-related entries or photos can be sudden and shocking. This issue could be solved, experts say, with some policy tweaking.

Ellen Simonetti, the flight attendant in Texas, said she was suspended without pay, then benefits, and subsequently fired, by Delta Airlines this fall. Allegedly, her release was for posting photos of herself in uniform on her blog, which contained a mix of fact and fiction, she said. She'd never mentioned Delta by name as her employer, Simonetti said, and once Delta contacted her about the photos, she removed them from her site.

Simonetti said she has filed a discrimination complaint with the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and she's also trying to appeal to Delta to reclaim her job. She's not aware of any company policies regarding blogging, she said, and if Delta wants to fire her for violating uniform-use guidelines, there are plenty of others that should be let go, too.

"I just want fair treatment, you know?" she said.

Simonetti, like others who reported similar experiences, said if she'd known what the repercussions would be, she'd never have posted the photos.

Delta spokeswoman Benet Wilson said she couldn't say if the airline has any blogging policies, nor whether Simonetti was even an employee of Delta.

"All I can say about this is that we do not discuss internal company employee matters," she said.

Microsoft had a similar response when asked about Michael Hanscom, who had an experience similar to Simonetti's. Last October, he was working on Microsoft's Redmond, Washington, campus as a temp contracted to Xerox. One day, he saw some then-new Power Mac G5 computers being unloaded on site, and, tickled by the idea that Microsoft would be using Apple hardware, he snapped a photo and uploaded it to his blog.

Posted by: Mike S.

Unfortunately because of what I have heard, seen, and read and some experiences I've had I have not fully identified myself here on the Cove, nor have I been as forthcoming as I'd like to about my past experiences out of fear that someone in the business might figure out who I am and it might cause trouble. Despite the strong desire to do so, I err on the side of caution -- or I try to. And I always tell the truth -- or as much of it as I can. This has in the past caused some to call me paranoid, but I have a family to think about. So, I try to be as helpful as I can w/o risking too much. 99% of the folks here I feel are quite trustworthy -- but that 1%...

Posted by: Marc

Well, for the most part this forum is just people asking questions. Sure, some people complain about their 'situation' from time to time but I don't see the forums as a hotbed of dissent. Nor are people coming here and divulging company secrets.

Posted by: Steve Prevette

The people that would cause my career to be negatively impacted don't pay attention to stuff like a discussion board like this.

No, I have never been "outed" at work (either Fluor Hanford or City University). I tend to even volunteer and point folks to here.

But, just like when you are seen as a "troublemaker" at work, I would say I am very careful to post here what I would not mind showing up in the front page of the newspaper, or on the CEO's desk (Hi, Ron, if you are reading this).

A manager I had years ago once told me - "Steve, you have the remarkable ability to p*** in a person's Wheaties bowl and they won't realize it for an hour, and when they do, they can't do anything about it".

So yes, there are always horror stories to be told, and things to learn from them. But I at least always try to put them in a context where it won't be seen as coming from a "disgruntled" employee. Besides, at the present time my work has come to be accepted, and I actually have two VP's battling over who should "own" me organizationally.

A late thought - I do most of my visiting to the Cove on the job. If anyone asked, this is professional development, and yes, I have applied a few ideas on the job. Better, it gives me a chance to refine some of my ideas prior to trying them here. Given that I am actually being paid while I am here, I certainly should not do anything detrimental to my employer or the US government, or you all reading this since your taxes go to my salary.

Posted by: Carl Keller

I recently sued a Korean Car manufacturer due to a faulty transmission. It seems the 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty was only a means of getting people to buy the car, they were not ACTUALLY saying that they would honor such a claim. It must have worked, JD Power and associates fell for it!

In any case I got my money because they settled the day before the case was to appear in court.

BUT...

One of the tactics the high powered attorney used was a subpeona that asked many questions concerning the case. One of the questions was:

"Please indicate any Forums, Chat rooms or other internet activity you have accessed concerning the vehicle and/or manufacturer and state the screen named you used during any such discussions."

Scary huh?

Carl-

Posted by: Wes Bucey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Keller

I recently sued a Korean Car manufacturer due to a faulty transmission. It seems the 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty was only a means of getting people to buy the car, they were not ACTUALLY saying that they would honor such a claim. It must have worked, JD Power and associates fell for it!

In any case I got my money because they settled the day before the case was to appear in court.

BUT...

One of the tactics the high powered attorney used was a subpeona that asked many questions concerning the case. One of the questions was:

"Please indicate any Forums, Chat rooms or other internet activity you have accessed concerning the vehicle and/or manufacturer and state the screen named you used during any such discussions."

Scary huh?

Carl-

As I wrote somewhere in the thread about ethics (Ethics - Moral law vs. Criminal law) many organizations have people working for them who are as serious as a heart attack - their task (as they see it) is to crush the opposition. A large part of that is intimidation, regardless if the information they gather can actually be used in court.

Your own attorney should have been able to forestall such intimidation by responding with a request to opposing counsel to explain the relevance of the information obtained or passed on the internet, since it could have also been obtained in casual conversation, reading magazines at a newsstand or library, or in privileged communication with one's attorney.

Dealing with ANY corporation by individuals can be a scary, risky event. It is why I almost always advise getting competent counsel.

I believe what you actually got was an "interrogatory" questionnaire from opposing counsel, not a subpoena from a court of competent jurisdiction.

Interrogatories are essentially fishing (some might use the term "phishing") expeditions to try and find out something which might damage your case. It is imperative that they NEVER be completed without advice of counsel.

Posted by: Carl Keller

Wes,

You are of course correct, it was an interrogatory. I did not think most on this forum would be up on the legal jargon.

My attorney, who happens to be my brother did respond exactly as you sugggested. I will not use his exact quote, but suffice to say he had a suggestion of what they could do with the request.

I am amazed that anyone actually follows through when the initimidation gets hot and heavy. Most people are not as savvy as you or I and when the opposition starts sending threats that you are going to be liable for their legal expenses (which they tried in my case) it tends to get their attention.

The average Joe (or Josephine) really has no recourse. to follow through you have to have counsel, which costs $. To not follow through means you are at their mercy.

Carl-

Posted by: Wes Bucey

Important for everyone!
There are ways (depending on one's financial circumstances, as well as the circumstances of the case) to receive free or heavily discounted counsel from competent attorneys. In any regard, EVERY bar association has a system where you can consult with an attorney about your options, exposures, and potential costs for one visit for a price ranging from zero to about $40 for a one hour interview. The referral system assures you get an attorney competent in the specific area you raise when you make the call. If you do not have a regular family attorney to make the referral, call your state bar association and ask about the program.

Posted by: Jennifer Kirley

Quote:

Originally Posted by db

I mention the Cove from time to time at work. My boss finally got on and started poking around. Now he knows I'm not as smart as I look (?). Anytime he has a question, I just jump to the Cove and find the answer. I think he is thinking about firing me and hiring the Cove. He's just not sure how that will work with taxes, benefits and all.

I submit that resourcefulness trumps knowlege. How can one have all the answers, and how can one, with a straight face, expect another to have all the answers? It's better to cast about the Cove with a stumper and gather the learned insight from which to deliberate or add to the brainstorming effort.

I am honored to have been deemed acceptable to contribute here.

Posted by: Carl Keller

Excellent advice Wes.

I absolutely agree. I will not mention the name of the firm that the vehicle manufacturer used in my case, but suffice to say it was one of the top 3 East of the Mississippi. When I got the first letter, I said "holy c***!" But my attorney put it in proper perspective. In the end, I got what was rightfully mine, no less, no more.

Everyone needs to keep in mind, this is the first time I have ever had to resort to legal action. I am not "sue happy" and despise people who try to use the system to get over on a company or another person.

Carl-