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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001
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View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?
ASQ Member - Yes I read it. 29 26.13%
ASQ Member - Didn't read it. 17 15.32%
Not an ASQ Member 23 20.72%
Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam. 13 11.71%
It has Become a Scam, but is Good Business Practices 57 51.35%
Disagree - Hoyer is way off base. 5 4.50%
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value added, iso 9001 - quality management systems
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  Post Number #17  
Old 14th October 2003, 12:31 PM
Kevin Mader's Avatar
Kevin Mader

 
 
Total Posts: 1,223
Hey gang,

First, an overdue Thank You to Atul. I'm sorry that I overlooked this thread for 18 months.

Wes, here is one version of the letter I had published back then. It was a prophecy of a sort, in retrospect, as Nasser's exit came a month or two later and preceeded the likes of Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco.

I wrote:

Mr. Hoyer’s comments in “Why Quality gets an F” as well as to the comments he references from Bert Gunter are loud and clear. Aside from being that, they are in my opinion, true.

In addition to the fact that Quality has in recent years taken the back seat I also add this: lack of Business Ethics are sitting right there with it. Not only does Jacques Nasser need to reacquaint himself with both, many others including the Quality Movement need to do the same. Perhaps it is time that Donald Petersen comes out of retirement to restore the AIM of Ford.

I am hopeful that it isn’t too late for Ford as Nasser’s clear inaction to these somewhat recent tragic events will have a lasting, negative effect. Until folks figure out that the proverbial “bottom line” is secondary to the needs of the customer, disasters such as this one will continue to happen. If he thinks an endorsement into a Six Sigma culture is the answer, he is sorely mistaken. It will lead to a similar end, perhaps even quicker!

Contrary to Mr. Dramm’s comments (as so posted at the ASQNet), I respectfully submit that customer satisfaction and profitability are not linked. The Customer does not care about profit. The Customer cares about many other Value statements, but profit is clearly not one of them. I would even go to say that customer satisfaction and profit in this article are distinctly different, and are not ‘inextricably linked’. In order for the two to be linked, each would need recognition by the several components that make up a System. In the examples shared by Mr. Hoyer, we see that Big Business, such as Ford and Bridgestone are focused on getting products out rather than focusing on customer needs. This is evidence that Systems Thinking is absent and as such, profit cannot be linked to Customer Satisfaction.

Personally, I think that my argument would be supported by any one of the several families currently living with the tragic consequences so easily dismissed by Mr. Nasser at Ford. In fairness to Mr. Nasser, he is not alone. The sad return to Financial Paradigms, as correctly suggested by Mr. Hoyer in his article, is promoted and reinforced by Wall Street. This has caused a setback in the Quality Community and the Quality Movement. If people are not losing their lives, they are losing their jobs under such a paradigm. It is important for us as Quality practitioners to do our part in helping to educate our coworkers, neighbors, and children on the benefits of a Quality Paradigm, a paradigm consistent with improvement of the well being of everyone in the System, inclusive of our Environment. ‘Quality of Life’ is what we are after, not excuses and finger pointing over tragedies like this one in a vain attempt to maintain profitability.


The published letter was toned down and condensed for printing. Otherwise, the statements made were the same. I can't recall the exact date of publishing, but sometime near the end of 2001 in QP.

Regards,

Kevin
Thanks to Kevin Mader for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #18  
Old 14th October 2003, 01:45 PM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,247
Wes,

I too agree with your point #9. FWIW I would have bought from your "self-declared" company. I have long advocated self-declaration if you do it right and can get by with it -- unfortunately IMO too few companies can get by with it.

Kevin -- You said, "I respectfully submit that customer satisfaction and profitability are not linked". Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Are they a perfect correlation? IMO, no. But IMO they are reasonably correlated in most cases. Whether you make potato chips or semiconductor chips; whether you mop floors or provide corporate IT support for GM, do a bad job in some respect and tick-off your customers (make them dissatisfied) and see what happens to your profits. Not linked? Try it in your company and see! (On second thought -- don't. We need people working!
  Post Number #19  
Old 14th October 2003, 02:35 PM
Wes Bucey's Avatar
Wes Bucey

 
 
Total Posts: 11,156
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Kevin Mader

Hey gang,

. . .
Wes, here is one version of the letter I had published back then. It was a prophecy of a sort, in retrospect, as Nasser's exit came a month or two later and preceeded the likes of Enron, Worldcom, and Tyco.

. . .
The published letter was toned down and condensed for printing. Otherwise, the statements made were the same.
. . .
Regards,

Kevin
Thanks, Kevin. I'm probably more satisfied with the unexpurgated version.

Mike, In general, I agree with your thesis that poor customer satisfaction and poor organization profit are linked. I'm not sure what Dramm and Kevin had in mind in Kevin's reference. The difference in management's perception has to do with the time periods involved. Customers like me are clever enough to know that we want our supplier to make a profit to stay in business. We do not want to be gouged, however. Customers vote with their feet. When they feel abused, the easiest response is to go somewhere else.

Managements in organizations which look for short-term return on ANY activity (are you listening, 6S folk?) usually ignore customer satisfaction. By the time the customer reaction [that they've been abused] sets in, the "hero" who created the mess is long gone to the next assignment, usually ready with a quip like, "It was OK when I ran things."
  Post Number #20  
Old 14th October 2003, 02:57 PM
WALLACE's Avatar
WALLACE

 
 
Total Posts: 759
Wes,
You've hit the nail right on the head re- six sigma.
Man, I've grown to hate that term.
Wallace
  Post Number #21  
Old 15th October 2003, 05:20 PM
Kevin Mader's Avatar
Kevin Mader

 
 
Total Posts: 1,223
Mike,

I forget these days what Dramm's association was, but Wes is right. It was in the context of what Dramm wrote.

Regards,

Kevin
  Post Number #22  
Old 19th January 2004, 04:42 AM
Marc's Avatar
Marc

 
 
Total Posts: 26,555
Spin! Customer Satisfaction vs. Profitability

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mike S.

Kevin -- You said, "I respectfully submit that customer satisfaction and profitability are not linked". Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Are they a perfect correlation? IMO, no. But IMO they are reasonably correlated in most cases.
Any data to back this up? I don't believe they are linked either.
  Post Number #23  
Old 19th January 2004, 09:54 AM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,247
Re: Customer Satisfaction vs. Profitability

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Marc

Any data to back this up? I don't believe they are linked either.
Hmmmmm.... an old thread resurrected. Data -- do I have data to back this up? Well, not right off the bat I don't. I'm sure I could dig us some references from various "experts" showing the link that I believe is there, but you could probably dig around and find some that agree with your point, too. To me it just seems like common sense that satisfied customers will help your profitability and vice-versa, thus my original statement: "Whether you make potato chips or semiconductor chips; whether you mop floors or provide corporate IT support for GM, do a bad job in some respect and tick-off your customers (make them dissatisfied) and see what happens to your profits." Being a self-employed businessman I would think you'd see a link between satisfied customers and profits, but I suppose not. I know that when I am unhappy with a product or service I usually do not spend money with the business providing it, or I spend less.

Do you have any data to support your view?

In the interim, I think this question begs one of those unscientific but nevertheless interesting Cove polls. I'll post one soon.
  Post Number #24  
Old 20th January 2004, 09:04 AM
Joe Cruse's Avatar
Joe Cruse

 
 
Total Posts: 279
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?

I'm thinking of the stories of how some businesses were "driven" out of the market by the Big 3's constant demand for price decreases, which were required by them for customer satisfaction.

Is this the line of thinking you are on, Marc and Kevin?

Joe
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