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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001 - Page 4

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View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?
ASQ Member - Yes I read it. 29 26.13%
ASQ Member - Didn't read it. 17 15.32%
Not an ASQ Member 23 20.72%
Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam. 13 11.71%
It has Become a Scam, but is Good Business Practices 57 51.35%
Disagree - Hoyer is way off base. 5 4.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 111. You may not vote on this Poll because you are not Logged In.


Some Related Topic Tags
value added, iso 9001 - quality management systems
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Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
  Post Number #25  
Old 20th January 2004, 10:44 AM
Claes Gefvenberg's Avatar
Claes Gefvenberg

 
 
Total Posts: 4,952
Thumbs up Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Joe Cruse

Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?
Absolutley. That's when we say NO. 7.2.2c is at least one clause that is not snake oil.

/Claes

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  Post Number #26  
Old 23rd January 2004, 10:50 AM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,270
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Joe Cruse

Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?
Sometimes that is certainly the case, no question.
  Post Number #27  
Old 24th January 2006, 09:09 AM
Marc's Avatar
Marc

 
 
Total Posts: 26,672
Current comments? Have you 'voted'?
  Post Number #28  
Old 24th January 2006, 09:41 AM
Marc's Avatar
Marc

 
 
Total Posts: 26,672
Also see this discussion thread: ISO 9001 - Gigantic waste or Beneficial? Why does ISO 9001 exist? Got data/facts?
  Post Number #29  
Old 21st December 2007, 05:20 PM
Marc's Avatar
Marc

 
 
Total Posts: 26,672
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Telemarketing ISO9001 Implementation discussion thread moved to: Telemarketing - ISO 9001 Implementation
  Post Number #30  
Old 11th January 2010, 04:10 PM
ISO 9001 Guy

 
 
Total Posts: n/a
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Marc View Post

In a recent issue of Quality Progress, R. W. Hoyer wrote an article titled Why Quality Gets An F. The current issue has several replies in its QP Mailbag.

The poll with this thread is Multiple Choice.

I'm curious... What do YOU think? Your comments are also welcome!
It's like that picture where some people see a haggard old woman and others looking at the same picture see a lovely young woman. It's the same ink on the page. Yet two people can disagree about what it represents. These exercises often serve to reflect the viewpoint of the observer.
Those who view ISO 9001 as a guide identifying which processes an organization must control to assure quality, or a framework upon which to pattern a QMS, it's like these folks view ISO 9001 as the haggard old woman. For years, many promoted this view of ISO 9001, plenty insisting there was no other way to view it.
The beauty in ISO 9001 cannot be seen from this perspective. The lovely young woman is standing right before us, yet so few see her. ISO is doing all it can to help us see the beauty in ISO 9001 by promoting the process approach, but this advice escapes those who insist upon seeing the old hag.
If an observer chooses to view ISO 9001 as the old woman, and chooses not to see the beauty in it, it sure does look like snake oil. If an observer chooses to see the beauty in it, using ISO 9001 properly as intended, it IS NOT snake oil.
What tool can one use contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations and expect good results? If a person continues to use a tool contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations, and continues to produce bad results, at some point we might hope it would occur to that person that some benefit may result from understanding the manufacturer's recommendations. Certainly a person misusing a tool and losing productivity as the result must at some point lose the right to complain about the tool.
If this person is unaware of the proper way to use the tool, yet has been (mis)using it properly from all indications, it's easy to see why this poor person might think the tool is nothing but snake oil. It's really a matter of understanding how to use the tool properly. Used properly, it's good quality management--not snake oil.

Last edited by ISO 9001 Guy; 15th January 2010 at 11:04 AM.
  Post Number #31  
Old 18th March 2010, 07:51 AM
al40's Avatar
al40

 
 
Total Posts: 510
Re: Snake oil

I have to agree, I have only worked with one company in the last 7 years that took ISO serious and implemented a system to improve their business and not to get a cert on the wall. The last one I worked with recently was only concerned with how do we get past the audit in order to retain our cert. I can't speak for everyone but Quality used to be fun but it seems more emphasis is put on getting the cert than improving our processes and business functions.

That's just my take...

Take care,
al40

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by db View Post

I am one (okay the only one so far) of the ASQ members that did not read the article. I started to, but after a few paragraphs, decided I had no interest in reading the reminder. I have worked with enough companies to discover several things. First, there are those who only want the flag, and will skirt any requirement they can. For them, it is snake oil. There are others that have taken these good business practices (I often say that much of ISO 9001 fall into the “well duh” category) and have run with them. For these companies, ISO 9001 is the oil that lubricates their business. The third group wants to do the right thing, but struggled before 9K, and still struggles. For them it is the castor oil that prevents their business from getting sicker.

I guess one person’s snake oil could be another person’s life oil. It is all a matter of perspective, and what you do with it. After all, even snake oil is great for roses!

  Post Number #32  
Old 18th March 2010, 08:04 AM
harry

 
 
Total Posts: 6,290
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Poll closed on 18 March 2010.
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