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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001 - Page 5

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View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?
ASQ Member - Yes I read it. 29 26.13%
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Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam. 13 11.71%
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  Post Number #33  
Old 24th April 2018, 03:58 PM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

8 years after the last post and 16 years after the thread was created, I am posting this reply. But I am new and this topic caught my attention.


Yes, many or maybe most companies only care for the cert. Their clients demand it, so they only go so far as what they need for the cert.

I can say however that a FEW companies, like my own, do NOT need the certification.

The ISO 9001 certification is not demanded or even asked by any of our clients. It never became a requirement for public biddings in Brazil. And we only work with public biddings.

And yet, we have kept it for 10 years now. And we even changed the certification company (DLV to Bureau Veritas) because we thought the previous Certification Company was going to soft on us.

Our objective IS to force employees to seek process/procedures improvement. Doing things more right. More compliance.

It has its cost, but it also helped us save money. Some ISO audits caught problems that could have cost us quite a lot of $$$$, and more than just find the problem, forced us to think in how to avoid the problem repeating.

Before ISo, we would take immediate action but would not act on the root problem.


All these quality lingo, like Non Conformity, Root Problem, 5 Whys, Ishikawa, etc, etc, has helped us a lot, as the company started small in the late 70s and to this day it's a family business. So it grew with many processes being informal and prone to problems.
Thanks to rogerpenna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #34  
Old 24th April 2018, 08:18 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,318
Thumbs up Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

Before ISo, we would take immediate action but would not act on the root problem.
Welcome to The Cove, fellow countryman.

Congrats on sharing your experience, but, with all due respect, companies should NOT NEED an annual or semi-annual audit by a 3rd party CB auditor to have a continual improvement mind set. The system should be owned by the workforce and any need for an extrinsic pressure to keep the discipline and improvement drive is, to an extent, dysfunction.

If you are really seeking an external set of experienced eyes to help the organization in maintaining a continual drive, the constraints imposed onto a CB auditor make the role very limited. You would be better off engaging with a professional and knowledgeable consultant that can REALLY help the organization moving up in the maturity journey.

Um abraįo.
  Post Number #35  
Old 24th April 2018, 09:12 PM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

well, it was the external consultant that suggested the ISO.

I was not at the company at the time anyway. I suppose that some 10 years ago there was the possibility that PBQP-H was to be demanded as a pre-requisite in public biddings of the construction sector (both habitat and civil infrastructure).

As PBQP-H is based on ISO, but a little harder and with items specific to civil construction (also less "free" for the organization to decide what they want), we implanted ISO and in a next step PBQP-H.

As the organization noted improvement with ISO and PBQP-H, we decided to maintain it, even if PBQP-H has never been really implemented as a requirement for public biddings.


Unfortunately, many employees will ONLY follow procedures because of ISO internal and external audits.
Thanks to rogerpenna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #36  
Old 24th April 2018, 09:31 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Read This! Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

8 years after the last post and 16 years after the thread was created, I am posting this reply. But I am new and this topic caught my attention.


Yes, many or maybe most companies only care for the cert. Their clients demand it, so they only go so far as what they need for the cert.

I can say however that a FEW companies, like my own, do NOT need the certification.
Certification? Maybe not. But you might just be missing the entire point of why ISO 9001 started out. Customers. When I was the Supplier Quality Manager for a significant UK organization I had no time (or budget) for explaining to suppliers (what some call "supplier development") of basic "blocking and tackling" when it came to assuring the quality of the product we bought. Implementing ISO 9001 requirements is to raise the level of confidence in the supplier's ability to assure quality, pure and simple. Certification simply intended to replace to need for multiple supplier audits of the same stuff.

Your organization may not need certification. However, do you customers have confidence in your ability to assure quality?
  Post Number #37  
Old 24th April 2018, 10:13 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,318
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

Unfortunately, many employees will ONLY follow procedures because of ISO internal and external audits.
Sorry, but that has DYSFUNCTION written all over it. Show me an organization that needs a boogey man to keep the discipline of the workforce and I show you a dysfunctional company.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, by the way.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #38  
Old 25th April 2018, 08:18 AM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Sorry, but this thread is not about the company being dysfunctional or not. Nor about the entire point of ISO being created.

It's about ISO being snake oil or not.

Like someone said in the 2nd post of this thread, back in 2002
Quote:
There are others that have taken these good business practices (I often say that much of ISO 9001 fall into the “well duh” category) and have run with them. For these companies, ISO 9001 is the oil that lubricates their business. The third group wants to do the right thing, but struggled before 9K, and still struggles. For them it is the castor oil that prevents their business from getting sicker.

Btw, we donīt really care if the point of ISO is the client, because in our opinion that point doesnīt really matter in our sector.

We work with public biddings ONLY. Public biddings are about lowest price, not highest quality, nor about client relationship. Building "client relationships" in public sector is actually considered corruption.

Our quality IS better than our competitors, as all our client satisfaction polls show every year.


But that is not the important thing for us, because even if we exceed our client's expectations in every way, next public bidding, even if from the SAME client, it's the lowest price bid that will win. The client canīt even do anything about it, because this is regulated by law.


Furthermore, our clients have their own quality systems. So we canīt deliver a service with defects, as the client has supervised and approved the product all along the way.

What we can do is exactly reduce our costs by avoiding re-work. Improve our planning so that we donīt end in the negative because the government client wonīt pay for two years and we invested $$$$, etc.
  Post Number #39  
Old 25th April 2018, 11:35 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Lightbulb Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

Sorry, but this thread is not about the company being dysfunctional or not. Nor about the entire point of ISO being created.

It's about ISO being snake oil or not.

Like someone said in the 2nd post of this thread, back in 2002



Btw, we donīt really care if the point of ISO is the client, because in our opinion that point doesnīt really matter in our sector.

We work with public biddings ONLY. Public biddings are about lowest price, not highest quality, nor about client relationship. Building "client relationships" in public sector is actually considered corruption.

Our quality IS better than our competitors, as all our client satisfaction polls show every year.


But that is not the important thing for us, because even if we exceed our client's expectations in every way, next public bidding, even if from the SAME client, it's the lowest price bid that will win. The client canīt even do anything about it, because this is regulated by law.


Furthermore, our clients have their own quality systems. So we canīt deliver a service with defects, as the client has supervised and approved the product all along the way.

What we can do is exactly reduce our costs by avoiding re-work. Improve our planning so that we donīt end in the negative because the government client wonīt pay for two years and we invested $$$$, etc.
Good for you! If you do these things so well, I'm not sure why you chose to resurrect this thread. 99% of businesses who have their people post here, aren't as sophisticated as you say you are. Saying that ISO and certification isn't for your organization maybe so, but frankly, few here will understand - including myself - what the purpose of stating that is.
  Post Number #40  
Old 25th April 2018, 03:07 PM
asheshsaraf

 
 
Total Posts: 9
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Mark, I am conducting a doctoral research on Efficacy of ISO 9001:2015 standard. I was wondering how I could get people to fill out my survey.
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