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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001 - Page 6

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View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?
ASQ Member - Yes I read it. 29 26.13%
ASQ Member - Didn't read it. 17 15.32%
Not an ASQ Member 23 20.72%
Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam. 13 11.71%
It has Become a Scam, but is Good Business Practices 57 51.35%
Disagree - Hoyer is way off base. 5 4.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 111. You may not vote on this Poll because you are not Logged In.


Some Related Topic Tags
value added, iso 9001 - quality management systems
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Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
  Post Number #41  
Old 25th April 2018, 03:14 PM
Marc's Avatar
Marc

 
 
Total Posts: 26,662
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

It's posted in the thread you started: Efficacy of ISO 9001:2015 - Survey

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  Post Number #42  
Old 25th April 2018, 04:06 PM
rogerpenna

 
 
Total Posts: 13
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

Good for you! If you do these things so well, I'm not sure why you chose to resurrect this thread.
If it was still pinned, we can hardly call it "ressurrect". I would guess mods decided new entries answering the question the thread proposes were still welcome. Imho, somewhat different from a thread in page 100.

Quote:
99% of businesses who have their people post here, aren't as sophisticated as you say you are.
I am not sure where I said we were sophisticated. I admitted that yes, we were probably somewhat dysfunctional.

And that we needed or liked ISO to keep things in order.


Quote:
Saying that ISO and certification isn't for your organization maybe so, but frankly, few here will understand - including myself - what the purpose of stating that is.
the purpose is answering the question asked by the thread. It's self explanatory really.

the thread asks if ISO is snake oil Second answer in the thread imho describes a situation where we fit in.

What was the purpose of anyone stating anything in this thread? Same as mine, I guess. And again, thread was pinned, which imho indicates new entries to the question were welcomed.
  Post Number #43  
Old 25th April 2018, 05:01 PM
asheshsaraf

 
 
Total Posts: 9
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Thank you very much Marc. I appreciate the help.
  Post Number #44  
Old 25th April 2018, 07:04 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,117
Let Me Help You Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by rogerpenna View Post

If it was still pinned, we can hardly call it "ressurrect". I would guess mods decided new entries answering the question the thread proposes were still welcome. Imho, somewhat different from a thread in page 100.



I am not sure where I said we were sophisticated. I admitted that yes, we were probably somewhat dysfunctional.

And that we needed or liked ISO to keep things in order.




the purpose is answering the question asked by the thread. It's self explanatory really.

the thread asks if ISO is snake oil Second answer in the thread imho describes a situation where we fit in.

What was the purpose of anyone stating anything in this thread? Same as mine, I guess. And again, thread was pinned, which imho indicates new entries to the question were welcomed.
The OP question is regarding ISO 9001, NOT certification. I cannot now follow your line of answering since it appears to conflate Certification, with ISO 9001 as a basis for a QMS. Until it's clear that the answer is specifically about the implementation of a QMS which uses ISO 9001 requirements as the model, meaningful debate/discussion will be fruitless. Certification is a separate subject entirely.
  Post Number #45  
Old 27th April 2018, 04:44 PM
Ken_M

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

The OP question is regarding ISO 9001, NOT certification. I cannot now follow your line of answering since it appears to conflate Certification, with ISO 9001 as a basis for a QMS. Until it's clear that the answer is specifically about the implementation of a QMS which uses ISO 9001 requirements as the model, meaningful debate/discussion will be fruitless. Certification is a separate subject entirely.

I think you're being overly critical. Seems clear he feels iso9001 is useful, not snake oil.
  Post Number #46  
Old 28th April 2018, 09:22 AM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,117
Let Me Help You Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ken_M View Post

I think you're being overly critical. Seems clear he feels iso9001 is useful, not snake oil.
Welcome Ken_M. I am very critical - when critical means the same as evaluative, analytical, interpretative, expository, explanatory. Too many people, for the last 30 years, have - and continue - to conflate the implementation of an ISO 9001-based QMS with the certification of same. What's your understanding?
  Post Number #47  
Old 28th April 2018, 11:26 AM
Ken_M

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

Welcome Ken_M. I am very critical - when critical means the same as evaluative, analytical, interpretative, expository, explanatory. Too many people, for the last 30 years, have - and continue - to conflate the implementation of an ISO 9001-based QMS with the certification of same. What's your understanding?
Not sure what you mean by "understanding". I understand the difference between implementing a quality system based on ISO9K and achieving certification.

What's important, isn't whether you obtain certification or not, it's whether you understand the intent and can effectively apply it to your organization. There are many companies that get certified because they need that piece of paper and focus too much on paperwork and passing audits, rather than applying the principles to their business.

Companies that implement it to improve, regardless of certification are more likely to benefit from it. Although I'm sure there are some that still just want to use it as a marketing tool and don't really understand many of the principles.

So...

It's not clear to me where you stand regarding the thread topic. Is it that ISO9k is NOT snake oil but the certification process is snake oil?

If so, I think you have to consider why Roger's company is getting certified vs why many others do. Those that just want the cert to hang in the lobby focus on passing the audit and will push the auditors away from anything that might result in a finding or an observation. Those that want to improve as a company will welcome findings as opportunities to improve as a company.
  Post Number #48  
Old 28th April 2018, 12:52 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,117
Read This! Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ken_M View Post

Not sure what you mean by "understanding". I understand the difference between implementing a quality system based on ISO9K and achieving certification.

What's important, isn't whether you obtain certification or not, it's whether you understand the intent and can effectively apply it to your organization. There are many companies that get certified because they need that piece of paper and focus too much on paperwork and passing audits, rather than applying the principles to their business.

Companies that implement it to improve, regardless of certification are more likely to benefit from it. Although I'm sure there are some that still just want to use it as a marketing tool and don't really understand many of the principles.

So...

It's not clear to me where you stand regarding the thread topic. Is it that ISO9k is NOT snake oil but the certification process is snake oil?

If so, I think you have to consider why Roger's company is getting certified vs why many others do. Those that just want the cert to hang in the lobby focus on passing the audit and will push the auditors away from anything that might result in a finding or an observation. Those that want to improve as a company will welcome findings as opportunities to improve as a company.
The OP is about ISO 9001. It doesn't mention certification. The use of ISO 9001 as the basis for a QMS isn't "snake oil". However, many, even recent posts throw certification into the mix and take the thread off course...
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