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ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001 - Page 7

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View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?
ASQ Member - Yes I read it. 29 26.13%
ASQ Member - Didn't read it. 17 15.32%
Not an ASQ Member 23 20.72%
Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam. 13 11.71%
It has Become a Scam, but is Good Business Practices 57 51.35%
Disagree - Hoyer is way off base. 5 4.50%
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value added, iso 9001 - quality management systems
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  Post Number #49  
Old 28th April 2018, 01:46 PM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,658
Yin Yang Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

The question is way too simplistic to reveal anything worthwhile.

A. ISO 9001 is a standard that specifies requirements for process-based business management systems so they deliver confidence that customer requirements will be fulfilled.

B. Quality professionals used to tag-on an ISO 9001 compliant QMS to try to deliver quality assurance but it often failed to win the competition for top managementís attention with the organizationís business management system.

C. Even some accredited registrars were complicit in this charade but gradually all five parties (quality professionals, top managers, registrars, accreditation authorities and ISO/TC 176) are changing quickly enough (we hope) to enable systems that comply with ISO 9001 to earn and keep an excellent reputation.

Beyond these five parties, business schools tend to underplay the importance of social responsibility and systems for determining and satisfying the needs of customers, employees, shareholders and other interested parties.

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  Post Number #50  
Old 30th April 2018, 11:00 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,318
Listen To Me! Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by John Broomfield View Post

C. Even some accredited registrars were complicit in this charade but gradually all five parties (quality professionals, top managers, registrars, accreditation authorities and ISO/TC 176) are changing quickly enough (we hope) to enable systems that comply with ISO 9001 to earn and keep an excellent reputation.
John, is there any evidence of this change that could be shared? While some people and organizations have always tried to uphold the intent of the standard and certification, the overwhelming pressure to commoditize the management system certification sector has been driving the market in the downward spiral towards the bottom.

Back in 2006, Mr. Simon Feary stated this:

Quote:
Free markets, an over-abundance of providers and the voluntary nature of certification have allowed short-term commercial interests to exploit opportunities offered by naive markets and complicit or disinterested governments. But put another way, simply and bluntly, accreditation has failed to do its job adequately and the certification product has leaked credibility.
Unfortunately, the people and organizations that want management system certification to mean something are in the minority.

To revert this trend, it would take some serious disruptive intervention. Something like is happening in the Notified Body sphere, where, due to some very public failures, and the fact that Notification is a REGULATED ACTIVITY, the NB's are being forced to rethink their approach and ensure competence of their personnel, the performance of unscheduled audits, etc...It is creating some significant disruption, especially in the Medical Device arena and we have several threads here in The Cove about that.

Fortunately and unfortunately, management system certification is NOT a regulated activity, allowing charlatans and unscrupulous people to co-exist in the same space with serious and professional practitioners. Until SOMETHING is done to revert that, the commodity mindset will promote all the possible shortcuts towards certification without associated confidence - the definition of quintessential nonconforming certification.

Last edited by Sidney Vianna; 30th April 2018 at 11:41 AM.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #51  
Old 30th April 2018, 01:29 PM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,658
Yin Yang Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Sidney,

I was stating the future position more in hope than fact.

For B2B the way forward is probably the industry-specific versions of the standard (ISO 9001) with the active engagement of the industryís top tier customers.

The riskier industries are the first to welcome regulation but even with medical devices we may generally assure quality but we still have a long way to go to prevent major failings.

Aerospace seems to enjoy a virtually defect-free certification regimen largely, perhaps, due the industry versions of ISO 9001 being used in a well-regulated industry. Counterfeit products may be an ongoing threat. Automotive shares this benefit and risk but seems to struggling with the design and development of autonomous vehicles.

Right now the construction industry continues to have many problems virtually untouched by ISO 9001 and certification. A recent bridge collapse in Florida and a tower in London with its blazing cladding spring to mind. The designers, constructors and manufacturers claimed to have used certified products within their certified management systems.

For regulation to work well the demand has to come from the public/industry. As concerned quality professionals I doubt we would be successful in lobbying our government for laws, a regulator, regulations and enforcement until more people die.

Wanting to change a defective service continues to drive us and I guess that is why we are both on the Cove.

John
Thanks to John Broomfield for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #52  
Old 1st May 2018, 11:58 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,318
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by John Broomfield View Post

Wanting to change a defective service continues to drive us and I guess that is why we are both on the Cove.


That's right. Unfortunately until the USERS of certificates demand the change, the whole sector (with a few exceptions) will keep accelerating the downward spiral. This change is NEVER going to come from within.

The business world and society at large want and need confidence in the supply chain. Unfortunately, they keep ordering certificates, without knowing what to do when certificates don't deliver confidence.
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