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Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
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Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
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  Post Number #9  
Old 27th May 2011, 12:03 AM
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JaneB

 
 
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Gosh, Sidney, what an excellent post!

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

When we realize that ISO 9004 addresses many additional aspects of a high-performing quality management system, not touched upon by ISO 9001, we should reach a conclusion that ISO 9001 is a relatively unsophisticated approach to quality.
Yes, it is. Really, it's just quite basic good practice on the whole.
And how well you delineate the difference in approach, between developing and maturing the processes needed by the organisation (such as a New Product process) vs having someone in the quality function 'baby-sit the organization for compliance against 7.3.' And you're right that such an approach isn't effective and cannot be sustained.

Indeed, as a consultant, I've sometimes been inclined to weep when I see how poorly ISO 9001 has been 'implemented' into some organisations and that they've clearly been forced by some misguided idiot into doing such things and told that they 'have to' in order to comply. They usually, down the track go one of two ways: figure out it has to be better and improve it, or give it up as just too onerous and of no or little business value.

I tend to agree about making the requirements largely invisible. I certainly don't want everyone to have to march around knowing all the terminology! Why should they have to?


Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

A few people should be aware of the requirements, in order to ensure that the business processes comply with the standard, but most of the workforce should not have to be exposed to ISO 9001, just like most people in a company are not trained in regulatory and statutory legal requirements which must be adhered, by the
Agree.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

To me, using the directives as motivation is like saying "because BIG Daddy says so."
No, I don't buy that. Part of being an employee is following the rules and the requirements. It's not a matter of Big Daddy, it's a matter of 'here's how we want it done'. If people hear/see 'Big Daddy' in this, I suggest that's to do with either personal viewpoints and/or the culture of the organisation itself. Sure, an organisation could take the 'don't ask why, just do it!' approach. But they could equally take the approach of 'good question, I"m happy to explain why we do it this way' one too! Which they favour will be because of the management style in favour in the company and, equally important, the culture of the organisation itself

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In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

if managers tell people to do things one way, then reward them for taking shortcuts, the louder message they hear is that they should cheat when they're not being watched.
Er yes, but that's a different topic to me. Whether this occurs or not has to do with the culture of the organisation - those beliefs or principles that it actually practices not just the ones it espouses in theory. It's not got anything to do with the Standard itself.

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In Reply to Parent Post by howste View Post

people should be doing things consistently and properly because they have been shown that they achieve consistently good results that way - and leaders need to reward the right activities.
Now there, I fully agree with you.

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In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

I agree that there is a long way to go any many clients I audit have a 'paper thin' approach to retaining certification (witness their internal audits and management reviews) but having that certificate gets them work so how can that be a failure?
Perhaps it's a failure in that it could have been oh, so much better?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

there are many people driving cars who don't have a clue as to what is under the bonnet/hood (forgive the English) but they can use their car successfully each day. However, they can only call for help from a specialist if something goes wrong. This is where I define the difference between being trained to do something as opposed to be educated to understand something.
True. But to continue the analogy, does one really need to have everyone mechanically trained enough to get under the bonnet/hood and fix the motor if it fails? Is it really necessary? I'd argue not.
Thank You to JaneB for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #10  
Old 27th May 2011, 12:12 AM
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by JaneB View Post

Perhaps it's a failure in that it could have been oh, so much better?


True. But to continue the analogy, does one really need to have everyone mechanically trained enough to get under the bonnet/hood and fix the motor if it fails? Is it really necessary? I'd argue not.
Ahh yes, continual improvement ....! now there's a topic that warrants further discussion under this thread.

Quite agree Jane, we don't want everyone tinkering with the motor but it would be nice if they could clearly explain the symptoms if something goes wrong.
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  Post Number #11  
Old 27th May 2011, 12:16 AM
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

we don't want everyone tinkering with the motor but it would be nice if they could clearly explain the symptoms if something goes wrong.
You mean the 'it kind of makes a klunka klunka klunka noise' won't quite cut it?
Thanks to JaneB for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #12  
Old 27th May 2011, 01:14 AM
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by JaneB View Post

You mean the 'it kind of makes a klunka klunka klunka noise' won't quite cut it?
The very kind of description I was thinking of!
Thanks to Colin for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #13  
Old 27th May 2011, 07:40 AM
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howste

 
 
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by JaneB View Post

Sure, an organisation could take the 'don't ask why, just do it!' approach. But they could equally take the approach of 'good question, I"m happy to explain why we do it this way' one too!
You said you disagreed with me, but that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
  Post Number #14  
Old 27th May 2011, 08:13 AM
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

The problem with that concept is the fact that this "flag" becomes the quality assurance flag because ISO 9001 is a quality management system standard. So, other functions in the organization don't see that flag as their flag nor something they should preoccupy themselves with.

Not if you get the active participation across the site.
This is why my internal audit teams always include one person from each deparmtent. They then communicate with their peers and spread the "gospel".
Next thing you know you got people from every area actually submitting improvement related preventive actions!

(Of course if management keeps shooting down these submissions for improvment...well that's another topic. )
  Post Number #15  
Old 27th May 2011, 11:13 AM
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silentrunning

 
 
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

I will give my $0.02 worth with the caveat that I am far less experienced and knowledgeable than those who have gone before me in this thread.

I have done pre audit ISO audits for several companies and found one thing to hold true with many if not most of them. The top management / owners see the Quality program as a necessary evil that is to be tolerated and little more. When I go to do a pre audit I seldom get to see anyone higher than the Quality Assurance Manager. When I have the opening meeting I always start with the same question – “Why do you want to get ISO / AS certified?” Invariably the answer is – one of our customers is requiring it. This is almost universally true in companies with 20 to 100 employees that are being run by the second or third generation descendants of the founder.
Next month I go to North Carolina to pre audit a small company with 11 employees. I will do the audit, give them their report and they will pass their real audit with flying colors. The company will be no better than they were before and will add no value by means of their Quality Program. I wish I had a magic wand and could wave it to make people understand that a successful company is built around a successful Quality Program.
Thank You to silentrunning for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #16  
Old 27th May 2011, 01:05 PM
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Sidney Vianna

 
 
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Thumbs up Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

As for keeping ISO 9001 invisible to the masses (I think I can see your tongue firmly in your cheek there), there are many people driving cars who don't have a clue as to what is under the bonnet/hood (forgive the English) but they can use their car successfully each day. However, they can only call for help from a specialist if something goes wrong. This is where I define the difference between being trained to do something as opposed to be educated to understand something.
Thanks, Colin, for the thoughtful feedback. As for the tongue in cheek assumption, I am sorry to disappoint you. While I am not naive thinking that the insanity of ISO programs, ISO manuals, ISO audits, ISO procedures, ISO this & ISO that will disappear, I wish it did. Like it or not, many organizations first attempt at formalizing and give structure to a quality management system happen because of the drive towards ISO 9001 certification (99.17% of the cases due to a customer mandate). Like you, I would much rather have the workforce educated into the reasons why we do something in a specific manner.
However, in the real world, and very unfortunately, most organizations attempt to "educate" the workforce along the lines of:
Quote:
"we are doing this because ISO 9001 requires it"
It is a huge disservice to themselves. If you really want to educate the workforce, we should state the whole story:
Quote:
We execute this business process this way because the organization determined this is the best method and criteria, at this time. The process, as designed help us complying with all legal requirements and voluntary standards we ascribe to, including ISO 9001
After giving much thought to this, I have no doubt any longer. The ONLY sustainable and effective way to implement any management system standard in an organization is by embedding it into it's business processes.

You had mentioned about the definition of failure. In my mind, failure is the lack of organizational (including top management) buy-in into the quality system. Failure is the continual disconnect between business processes and the "ISO program". Failure is the cultural stupidity of believing that a single department (QA/QC) can be held accountable alone to customer satisfaction and product conformity to requirements. That's what I consider failure in the context of this thread.
Thank You to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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