The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
UL - Underwriters Laboratories - Health Sciences
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail? - Page 5


Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Sponsor Links




Courtesy Quick Links


Links Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in the quest for knowledge and support:

Jennifer Kirley's
Conway Business Services


Howard's
International Quality Services


Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum


Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


Ajit Basrur
Claritas Consulting, LLC



International Standards Bodies - World Wide Standards Bodies

AIAG - Automotive Industry Action Group

ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Organization for Standardization - ISO Standards and Information

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology


Some Related Topic Tags
implementing a qms, implementing iso 9001, iso 9001 - quality management systems, implementation of a standard in a company
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  Post Number #33  
Old 1st June 2011, 02:04 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,372
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Jim Wynne View Post

My point was (and perhaps I didn't make it clearly) is not just that there were successful companies before ISO 9001, but that there were also lots of unsuccessful ones. The unsuccessful ones were unsuccessful for the same reasons that are now being ascribed to failure to properly implement ISO 9001. ISO 9001 has nothing to do with it, either way.
I'm OK with that...as I said, ISO is a package of tools...nothing more, nothing less. It's all in how you use it. Some people can use a chainsaw to carve artworks, others only cut firewood. ...Some people use ISO well, some ...ummm...well, not so much...

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #34  
Old 1st June 2011, 03:23 PM
bobdoering's Avatar
bobdoering

 
 
Total Posts: 4,090
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

What is interesting is the companies that had the most to gain were the ones that were the worst. If you were nearly perfect, the incremental improvement surely would not justify the overhead of outside audits. So, when people ask if ISO certification was worth it, all you could offer is "That Depends"....as usual.

Same thing for "Quality is Free" - the costs of quality systems are easily covered when you are bad and can show dramatic improvement. But, can you afford the overhead to keep it going if you are nearly perfect (asymptote?) Then, it shifts to cost of doing business and is not "free".
  Post Number #35  
Old 1st June 2011, 03:52 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,372
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by bobdoering View Post

What is interesting is the companies that had the most to gain were the ones that were the worst. If you were nearly perfect, the incremental improvement surely would not justify the overhead of outside audits. So, when people ask if ISO certification was worth it, all you could offer is "That Depends"....as usual.

Same thing for "Quality is Free" - the costs of quality systems are easily covered when you are bad and can show dramatic improvement. But, can you afford the overhead to keep it going if you are nearly perfect (asymptote?) Then, it shifts to cost of doing business and is not "free".
When I joined the ISO world 14 years ago, I saw a lot of "good companies." But, I didn't see a lot of companies that were near zero defects or 100% delivery. Now there are a lot of companies there. There has been a tremendous improvement in manufacturing over those years. ISO did not "do that." But, many of those companies would attribute their use of the ISO tools as a contributor in that improvement. I have seen it hundreds of times, watching companies I audited and pushed, continue to improve their performance. Most of them would and do readily agree their use of ISO helped them achieve that. Some won't agree, but why do we trash it, when so many clearly feel it helps.

ISO became the preeminent quality standard from the mid-90's to today, with a million certified companies, that are at various stages on their improvement journey. That period exactly mirrors a massive quality improvement period in manufacturing. Why do we have to torture the data to try to rob ISO of that correlation?

Last edited by Helmut Jilling; 1st June 2011 at 10:05 PM.
Thank You to Helmut Jilling for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #36  
Old 1st June 2011, 05:41 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,340
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

As you know, we are both well aware of the words in the standard.
Are you implying that ISO TC176 should have used the word business in place of quality, in the ISO 9001 standard?
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

I was making the case that many companies have evolved their use of the standard to a higher degree than the base requirements.
Certainly, any standard is a minimum level of requirements. Any organization will normally go beyond minimum requirements in order to run a proper business.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

Maybe, ISO does not intend quite as hard a line as you are suggesting?
Once again, I encourage you to read very carefully the self imposed scope limitation of ISO 9001, duly discussed in section 0.4 of the document.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

When I joined the ISO world 14 years ago, I saw a lot of "good companies." But, I didn't see a lot of companies that were near zero defects or 100% delivery. Now there are a lot of companies there. There has been a tremendous improvement in manufacturing over those years. ISO did not "do that." But, many of those companies would attribute their use of the ISO tools as a contributor in that improvement. I have seen it hundreds of times, watching companies I audited and pushed, continue to improve their performance. Most of them would and do readily agree their use of ISO helped them achieve that. Some won't agree, but why do we trash it, when so many clearly feel it helps.

ISO became the preeminent quality standard from the mid-90's to today, with a million certified companies, that at various stages on their improvement journey. That period exactly mirrors a massive quality improvement period in manufacturing. Why do we have to torture the data to try to rob ISO of that correlation?
One of the ISO 9000 principles is the factual approach to decision making. The data shows that ISO 9001 certifications in North America (dominated by the USA numbers) are either flat or declining. So, if ISO 9001 implementation and certification would lead in the VAST majority of the cases (as you infer) to business benefits and significant performance improvements, I would think that EVERY organization experiencing such gains WOULD MANDATE the same formula for their suppliers. Wouldn't that make sense?

Do you care to explain why the numbers don't support that assumption? Why don't we have many more voluntary certifications to ISO 9001? After all, based on what you say, most organizations experience drastic improvements.

I can't reconcile your position and the facts/data I have access to. But I would like to hear your explanation for the lack of growth in the number of ISO 9001 certificates in the USA.

Last edited by Sidney Vianna; 1st June 2011 at 05:59 PM.
  Post Number #37  
Old 1st June 2011, 11:00 PM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,372
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post


...One of the ISO 9000 principles is the factual approach to decision making. The data shows that ISO 9001 certifications in North America (dominated by the USA numbers) are either flat or declining. So, if ISO 9001 implementation and certification would lead in the VAST majority of the cases (as you infer) to business benefits and significant performance improvements, I would think that EVERY organization experiencing such gains WOULD MANDATE the same formula for their suppliers. Wouldn't that make sense?

Do you care to explain why the numbers don't support that assumption? Why don't we have many more voluntary certifications to ISO 9001? After all, based on what you say, most organizations experience drastic improvements.

I can't reconcile your position and the facts/data I have access to. But I would like to hear your explanation for the lack of growth in the number of ISO 9001 certificates in the USA.
It is always interesting how you change my words...

1. I never infer that the "VAST" majority of companies derive significant performance benefits from ISO 9001. Quite the contrary, I always state that there are two types of ISO - companies that actually get behind the program and use it to improve, and companies that do the minimum to get a certificate. I have posted over the years that half the companies only do the minimum. And, they are probably the ones found in posts, moaning about how they don't get any value from ISO 9001.

2. What I have inferred, - and stated...proclaimed...boasted... - is that the companies I have worked with over my 14 years have derived significant performance benefits from ISO 9001. None have voluntarily dropped their certification, nor had it revoked, while they worked with me. Not one. They never wanted to. They tell me they feel they get good value from their ISO program. They see the performance improvements. Those are not my opinions, it comes from them. Many top management teams have turned their view of ISO toward the positive after we have worked together for a while. I am not just saying that. They demonstrate it!

3. A key part of my work is to ensure they see the value of their ISO program in their own metrics. "Good decisions based on accurate data." I push them to be sure that they have good metrics that show true performance of each process. (as cl 4.1 and 8.2.3 require).

4. At any time, I have about 60 clients. At any time, about 10-20% of them are voluntarily certified to ISO. Currently, about 14 of my 61 clients are certified voluntarily. No customers mandating it. And, as far as I know, they are all profitable and acquiring new clients.

Over those 14 years I have worked with probably 200-300 clients. None have ever come to me and informed me they want to pull out of the ISO program. A few smaller suppliers downgraded from TS (or QS-9000) to regular ISO 9001, but none dropped certification while I worked with them. Maybe a couple asked what I thought about dropping, but were easily persuaded to stay in when I showed them in their own data, the benefits they got from ISO 9001. I have to conclude from that, they feel there is benefit received from being certified.

5. I do not recall any of my clients failing in their businesses while working with me. Even during this last recession, zero clients went out of business. They told me their ISO programs helped them survive the difficult times. Many improved their performance, and landed new clients during the last few years, as their competitors went out of business. I have to draw from that they feel they have gotten value from ISO. That is what they tell me.

6. The registrar I work with (Smithers) has had a few companies go out of business, or merged with others, but has also acquired new clients. I am pretty sure they have seen a net gain over the last few years. Only a small percentage of their clients change year over year. I have to draw the conclusion that their clients feel they are receiving value for their money and benefit from their ISO efforts.

7. The rate of growth in the USA is less than overseas, in part because the efforts in US and Europe are more mature. The growth is newer in Asia and India. But, the last numbers I saw showed globally the program continues to grow. It should be at 1,000,000 or so certifications. There has to be more behind that than customer demand. That would be very simplistic.

There has also been a somewhat significant loss of companies in the US, as businesses folded in general. That could lead to a reduction in numbers. But I don't have data as to how many.

Bottom line, Sidney, you are a smart guy, and see industry information. But, I can't agree with some of the conclusions you reach. I don't know what you hear at your company, but, I certainly do know what I see with my clients. And what I see is ISO is alive and well, and my clients continue to improve, audit after audit, year after year.

And, I am confident I am not alone, as there are a dozen other consultants that actively post here on Elsmar, and their comments are usually positive as well.

I see my clients becoming more successful and more robust. You are simply too late to persuade me that this ISO stuff does not work. I have seen too much good data, and heard too many positive comments from clients. I will make "good decisions based on that good data" (principle #7...my favorite of the 8, by the way... I quote it frequently).

I often tell my clients that ISO is a set of tools. It is like exercise. If you do it diligently, you will become more robust. If not, well, the world is filled with chubby people, and chubby companies...

This stuff works, and always has, because ISO is the same basic quality principles that have worked for 50+ years. ISO just packages them in an easy to use format.

You don't have to agree, my friend, but I have 14 years worth of clients that do agree, and going strong...
  Post Number #38  
Old 2nd June 2011, 12:49 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,340
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

I never infer that the "VAST" majority of companies derive significant performance benefits from ISO 9001. Quite the contrary, I always state that there are two types of ISO - companies that actually get behind the program and use it to improve, and companies that do the minimum to get a certificate. I have posted over the years that half the companies only do the minimum. And, they are probably the ones found in posts, moaning about how they don't get any value from ISO 9001.
The truth is that you have no way of knowing with any certainty the percentage of companies that "do the minimum". You are just speculating. In previous posts, you had put that figure at 25%.

Nevertheless, for those of us who know the state of the management system conformity assessment sector, for those of us who receive continual feedback from multiple stakeholders, we do know that a significant portion of the registrants struggle with business performance improvements, product conformity and customer satisfaction.

When I started this thread I was trying to explain why, IN MY OPINION, so many organizations fail to embed adequately international management system standards into their business process. Based on what you say, I understand you can not relate to the situation, since ALL of your clients experience good to great business performance. Congrats to you and your clients. Some of us have to deal with organizations that "don't get it", and continue to struggle despite genuine efforts by many people. I wish all auditors and consultants out there had your ability to nudge organizations towards the proper path. Especially third-party auditors who are constrained from consulting and advising their certification clients. Keep it up.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #39  
Old 2nd June 2011, 12:56 AM
Colin's Avatar
Colin

 
 
Total Posts: 1,508
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Sidney, I have been trying to establish the 'root cause' of your post on this subject - I suggested earlier that you had your 'tongue in your cheek' on certain statements because I was not sure if you were trying to provoke a response with your statement.

I wonder if there is a clue in your last post where you mentioned that auditors are constrained from offering consultancy advice? Do you feel that it would be better if auditors could offer more support to clients when conducting 3rd party audits?
  Post Number #40  
Old 2nd June 2011, 01:07 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,340
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

Do you feel that it would be better if auditors could offer more support to clients when conducting 3rd party audits?
Colin, I would only support that path if we totally re-engineered the accredited certification process, including the competence requirements for auditors. It would be scary to have some of auditors currently out there providing business advice to clients.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >

Bookmarks



Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Emoticons are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
ISO 9001:2008 Lead Auditor Exam Fail - How to follow up? supacook2k ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4 17th February 2015 06:26 PM
ISO 9001:2008 Sec 7.6 - Can we just log measurement devices as 'Pass/Fail'? StevePenney ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 118 28th March 2013 09:10 PM
How many fail ALL ISO 9001 registration audits - How many never make it? Ingeniero1 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 46 23rd June 2009 05:21 PM
Incorporating Non-ISO 9001 programs into the QMS (Quality Management System) RosieA ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21 19th September 2005 06:40 PM
Please HELP in ISO 9001 Implementation Yugender100 - 2005 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7 17th August 2004 12:13 PM



The time now is 03:18 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



Misc. Internal Links


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies"