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Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
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Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
Why do so many ISO 9001 Implementation Programs Fail?
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  Post Number #41  
Old 2nd June 2011, 01:24 AM
Colin's Avatar
Colin

 
 
Total Posts: 1,507
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

It would be scary to have some of auditors currently out there providing business advice to clients.
I agree 100% with that Sidney! Question is, how did they get appointed to that position in the first place when everyone can see their lack of understanding of business?
Thank You to Colin for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #42  
Old 2nd June 2011, 01:34 AM
Helmut Jilling

 
 
Total Posts: 4,366
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

The truth is that you have no way of knowing with any certainty the percentage of companies that "do the minimum". You are just speculating. In previous posts, you had put that figure at 25%.

Nevertheless, for those of us who know the state of the management system conformity assessment sector, for those of us who receive continual feedback from multiple stakeholders, we do know that a significant portion of the registrants struggle with business performance improvements, product conformity and customer satisfaction.

When I started this thread I was trying to explain why, IN MY OPINION, so many organizations fail to embed adequately international management system standards into their business process. Based on what you say, I understand you can not relate to the situation, since ALL of your clients experience good to great business performance. Congrats to you and your clients. Some of us have to deal with organizations that "don't get it", and continue to struggle despite genuine efforts by many people. I wish all auditors and consultants out there had your ability to nudge organizations towards the proper path. Especially third-party auditors who are constrained from consulting and advising their certification clients. Keep it up.
Of course I can relate. When we begin, my clients run the gamut just like the other companies.

Your question was "why do so many implementations fail?" Somewhere in the thread, the discussion veered toward blaming the ISO standard and certification process. I disagreed, and suggested when companies use the ISO standard correctly, over time improvement can be effective and consistent. I think that was the premise behind ISO in the first place.

I feel that auditors and registrars have a responsibility to help their clients improve, short of consulting. We must take our clients and assess where they are, write findings, identify appropriate interpretations of the requirements, promote a consistent measuring of performance, and do all that we can (short of consulting) to ensure that the certified clients improve their performance.

I suggest implementations fail in part because auditors and registrars don't push them toward understanding how to make their implementations succeed.

I used my clients as an example simply to show that implementation can consistently be effective, if companies apply the right tools in the right way. It is the organization's responsibility to implement their system. But, I believe it is the responsibility of auditors and registrars to "push" clients in the direction of continual improvement, by way of writing appropriate findings, and through appropriate interpretation of the requirements. That is the way I was trained, particularly on the automotive side.

When we do that, whch I believe is our job, it helps companies effectively implement their systems. Wasn't that the point of a 3rd party audit structure?

Last edited by Helmut Jilling; 2nd June 2011 at 03:19 AM.
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  Post Number #43  
Old 2nd June 2011, 06:18 AM
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ChrissieO

 
 
Total Posts: 350
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

To be honest, I haven't read the whole of this thread as at some point today I have 2 x 3rd party audit reports and a 2nd party report to write up before end of play

During the 2nd party audit I was conducting yesterday, for AEO not 9001, the subject of 9001 certification came up. The company, which is a small engineering "die cast" type family business was operating well and had performed well as a supplier for us for many years and with a little effort I saw no reason why they should not go for their 9001.

When I asked the question why they had not gone down the 9001 route they told me that they had started to process but shelved it when they thought there was too much paperwork involved and along with the fact that they had a bsuiness to run this would be difficult to maintain and and all the extra paperwork required would hinder their productivity.

I looked puzzled and asked them what had brought them to this conclusion and it turns out that they had employed the services of a consultant who had really overcooked the documentation side of things, provided them a "template" by clause style manual and an humongous set of procedures. Advised that they needed documented processes in place requiring endless forms, SOPs etc, that in my opinion were not required or could be greatly simplified.

No wonder they stopped the process.

I hopefully have now persuaded them, that with the right consultant they can build a QMS that works for them and is an asset to their business and not just files of paper required to tick boxes.

Chrissie
Thank You to ChrissieO for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #44  
Old 2nd June 2011, 08:43 AM
tomvehoski

 
 
Total Posts: 944
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ChrissieO View Post


During the 2nd party audit I was conducting yesterday, for AEO not 9001, the subject of 9001 certification came up. The company, which is a small engineering "die cast" type family business was operating well and had performed well as a supplier for us for many years and with a little effort I saw no reason why they should not go for their 9001.
If they have performed well for many years, what is the benefit of going for ISO? Even the most streamlined and logical system will be an added burden with unknown gains. ISO is no guarantee of improvement, and improvement can come without ISO.

Companies with great leadership/management, great products/services, skilled employees and good systems (beyond what ISO requires - finance, marketing, etc.) will succeed with or without it. Companies without those attributes will probably fail. It is next to impossible to determine what impact an ISO system actually had with all of the other variables.
  Post Number #45  
Old 2nd June 2011, 08:51 AM
ChrissieO's Avatar
ChrissieO

 
 
Total Posts: 350
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

I tend to agree with you, but like ourselves some of their other customers and potential new business are almost making it a requirement. I cannot see the likelyhood that we would not use them but some potential customers use it as a must. It almost becomes a marketing tool.

chrissie
  Post Number #46  
Old 2nd June 2011, 09:37 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
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Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Colin View Post

Question is, how did they get appointed to that position in the first place when everyone can see their lack of understanding of business?
They had the 10 years of experience in quality control....

Thanks for bringing that up, Colin. There should be a significant shift in terms of requirements and qualifications to deem one competent as a quality management system auditor.
  Post Number #47  
Old 2nd June 2011, 09:54 AM
ChrissieO's Avatar
ChrissieO

 
 
Total Posts: 350
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ChrissieO View Post

To be honest, I haven't read the whole of this thread as at some point today I have 2 x 3rd party audit reports and a 2nd party report to write up before end of play

Chrissie
Reports still not written, Oh the Joys of working in quality, you never know what is going to smack you in the face when you get to work each day

Chrissie
  Post Number #48  
Old 3rd June 2011, 04:51 AM
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JaneB

 
 
Total Posts: 3,518
Re: Why do many ISO 9001 implementation programs fail?

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

the companies I have worked with over my 14 years have derived significant performance benefits from ISO 9001.
That's been my experience also, and a very pleasant it is too. One of the advantages of having my own business and being more careful about who I work with as clients. I've learned to pay very, very close attention to whether the company leadership does have any commitment to the system, because if not, we're both wasting time. OK - I accept that some may see that as a 'luxury' that not all employees have, but for me it's not that, it's just a must have.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

7. The rate of growth in the USA is less than overseas, in part because the efforts in US and Europe are more mature. The growth is newer in Asia and India. But, the last numbers I saw showed globally the program continues to grow. It should be at 1,000,000 or so certifications. There has to be more behind that than customer demand. That would be very simplistic.
Thanks for bring in the global picture, Helmut. The world extends beyond North America, guys.

Look, I think we're all talking opinions here - Sidney has one, Helmut another, I another.

The topic being 'why do so many ISO 9001 programs fail', right? Not 'there's something wrong with ISO 9001' - there's plenty of people ready to beat that old drum.

And on the 'why they fail' I agree with parts of what both Helmut and Sidney say. ISO 9001 ain't a universal panacea. You get out of it what you put into it.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

I often tell my clients that ISO is a set of tools. It is like exercise. If you do it diligently, you will become more robust. If not, well, the world is filled with chubby people, and chubby companies...

This stuff works, and always has, because ISO is the same basic quality principles that have worked for 50+ years. ISO just packages them in an easy to use format.
Agree. (with a few bits excepted)

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

You don't have to agree, my friend, but I have 14 years worth of clients that do agree, and going strong...
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

The truth is that you have no way of knowing with any certainty the percentage of companies that "do the minimum". You are just speculating.....

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling View Post

I feel that auditors and registrars have a responsibility to help their clients improve, short of consulting. We must take our clients and assess where they are, write findings, identify appropriate interpretations of the requirements, promote a consistent measuring of performance, and do all that we can (short of consulting) to ensure that the certified clients improve their performance.

I suggest implementations fail in part because auditors and registrars don't push them toward understanding how to make their implementations succeed.
I'd agree with that. I've seen certified organisations who've had the most *awful* systems imposed on them by self-titled "consultants" in the name of ISO, and who struggled with them for a years... yet a close reading of the certification audits over a period of years did not even hint at the awfulness of the system, or the god-awfulness of the documentation, let alone the possibility of improving same!! And that's not once, but on a number of occasions.

A better standard of auditor would be a great thing. As would a better standard of consultants, including ridding the field of those who aren't but think they are.

Last edited by Stijloor; 3rd June 2011 at 05:04 AM. Reason: Fixed quotes.
Thanks to JaneB for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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