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ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
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ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues
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Some Related Topic Tags
iso 9001:2015, upper management commitment, upper management support
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  Post Number #9  
Old 12th December 2017, 09:34 AM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 1,322
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mike S. View Post

I agree with Big Jim's line of thought -- either the Big Boss steps in to support you and tells the other managers to get in-line or hit the bricks, or else you will lead a miserable work life there and be a scapegoat. Life is too short for such BS. If you cannot get support, quickly find somewhere else to work.
Yes but support isn't capitulation to the quality manager's every desire. The QM has a responsibility to keep the QMS lean and workable. Take the incident that started this post - a management review meeting. There is no need for a new, separate meeting. In fact, one of the least effective means is the annual meeting. One of the keys to ISO success is to make compliance seamless and hidden.
Thanks to Golfman25 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #10  
Old 12th December 2017, 10:13 AM
hogheavenfarm's Avatar
hogheavenfarm

 
 
Total Posts: 573
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

What you need to do is make compliance the path of least resistance. People will do what is 'easiest' for them. Make compliance easy, not difficult.
FFA (Force Field Analysis) is a good tool for analyzing this as well.
Thank You to hogheavenfarm for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #11  
Old 12th December 2017, 02:31 PM
century_rain

 
 
Total Posts: 5
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Big Jim View Post

You have an uphill battle. Without management desire to participate and support it will be very difficult. I encountered a company with about the same issues. They have a reasonably good system, but it is entirely because the quality manager does everything about it without support or appreciation. He has a very hard life.

You should be strongly considering if that is where you want to be. It seems like a waste of talent and education. Life is much better when you work where you are appreciated. You likely never will be there.
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mike S. View Post

I agree with Big Jim's line of thought -- either the Big Boss steps in to support you and tells the other managers to get in-line or hit the bricks, or else you will lead a miserable work life there and be a scapegoat. Life is too short for such BS. If you cannot get support, quickly find somewhere else to work.
Have to agree with these posters. Unless you can effect some kind of drastic change in their outlook, you're going to be in for a bad time. Do your best to make it work - but if you can't, use the experience and learn from it.

That said... most people in quality roles encounter this at some point in their career. If you can, focus on improvements with tangible financial impact. That at least may get their attention. Also, try to spot which of the three is the opinion leader - if you can get them on side, the others might follow.

Good luck!
Thanks to century_rain for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #12  
Old 13th December 2017, 09:07 AM
Mike S.

 
 
Total Posts: 2,212
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Golfman25 View Post

Yes but support isn't capitulation to the quality manager's every desire. The QM has a responsibility to keep the QMS lean and workable. Take the incident that started this post - a management review meeting. There is no need for a new, separate meeting. In fact, one of the least effective means is the annual meeting. One of the keys to ISO success is to make compliance seamless and hidden.
No one (except you) said anything about capitulating to the quality manager's every desire, nor did the OP state he was setting up an "annual" management review meeting.

The OP said " In the process of creating the outline, I asked a member of management for his input on something and he told me that he would quit before having to attend a formal review meeting."

Such tantrums by members of management are disrespectful and indicative of a poor manager. If another manager suggests something that I think is a bad idea he/she and I will have an adult discussion about it. If tantrums like that are allowed in this company the culture is poison and the chance a newbie will be able to accomplish much is small, IMO.

FWIW I also think symbolocally "burning the standard" is a bad idea.
Thanks to Mike S. for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #13  
Old 13th December 2017, 11:05 AM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 1,322
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mike S. View Post

No one (except you) said anything about capitulating to the quality manager's every desire, nor did the OP state he was setting up an "annual" management review meeting.

The OP said " In the process of creating the outline, I asked a member of management for his input on something and he told me that he would quit before having to attend a formal review meeting."

Such tantrums by members of management are disrespectful and indicative of a poor manager. If another manager suggests something that I think is a bad idea he/she and I will have an adult discussion about it. If tantrums like that are allowed in this company the culture is poison and the chance a newbie will be able to accomplish much is small, IMO.

FWIW I also think symbolocally "burning the standard" is a bad idea.
You're right. What she said was:

"I also created an outline for management review meetings, which I have mentioned the necessity of to top management on multiple occasions and am hoping to begin within the upcoming weeks."

So rather than a single annual meeting, she wants to engage in several meetings, plural. No wonder why they pushed back.

I have seen this stuff too many times to count. A Quality Manager comes in and wants to change the world with all of the "we need to do this" and "we need to do that" and the dreaded "to comply with the standard." Most times what they are requesting is not really necessary or is already being done a different way. What they should be asking is "what are we doing now and does it comply?" And if not, "how do I tweak it to comply?"

My company, like most, when thru the same process. It wasn't until we found the consultant whose approach was do what works for you and if in doubt leave it out, you can always add it later, that we had success moving forward. When you remove the standard from the conversation and focus on the business things go much better.
Thanks to Golfman25 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #14  
Old 13th December 2017, 01:10 PM
normzone

 
 
Total Posts: 747
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

My guys tried to avoid the Management Review Meeting by explaining to me how they did all the things required by that part of the standard already, in other portions of their work, every day, week, month, or year. Hence no need for a meeting, right?

So I asked them how they document that they do those things - how can they prove it to an external auditor? Do they take notes, keep minutes of their meetings, collect associated emails in one folder, document the many hallway conversations they engage in, or in any manner prepare to demonstrate that they do this to somebody that might not want to take their word for it ?

The answer was no, it's all elephant talk (obligatory King Crimson reference). Hence the periodic meetings, with agendas and minutes maintained by yours truly. If you're working with a disciplined group that can circumvent that need by being diligently organized, please introduce me and I'll move there to work with them - I haven't met one yet, and I'm sneaking up on retirement age.

Elephant Talk lyrics for those who missed that tour: King Crimson Lyrics - Elephant Talk

Last edited by normzone; 13th December 2017 at 01:16 PM.
Thanks to normzone for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #15  
Old 13th December 2017, 02:28 PM
Golfman25

 
 
Total Posts: 1,322
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by normzone View Post

My guys tried to avoid the Management Review Meeting by explaining to me how they did all the things required by that part of the standard already, in other portions of their work, every day, week, month, or year. Hence no need for a meeting, right?

So I asked them how they document that they do those things - how can they prove it to an external auditor? Do they take notes, keep minutes of their meetings, collect associated emails in one folder, document the many hallway conversations they engage in, or in any manner prepare to demonstrate that they do this to somebody that might not want to take their word for it ?

The answer was no, it's all elephant talk (obligatory King Crimson reference). Hence the periodic meetings, with agendas and minutes maintained by yours truly. If you're working with a disciplined group that can circumvent that need by being diligently organized, please introduce me and I'll move there to work with them - I haven't met one yet, and I'm sneaking up on retirement age.

Elephant Talk lyrics for those who missed that tour: King Crimson Lyrics - Elephant Talk
We have our management review checklist available at every in the course of business meeting. If we hit a topic on the list, we make due note of it. Sure sometimes you need to herd the cats and make sure everything is documented, but adding additional meetings to an already busy day is counter productive, imo.
Thanks to Golfman25 for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #16  
Old 13th December 2017, 02:48 PM
normzone

 
 
Total Posts: 747
Re: ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues

Thanks - but I've got feral cats. That level of notation exceeds their capabilities, and they make a point of only calling for me after the train has left the tracks.

As many companies do, we began with the token yearly Management Review meeting. To my surprise, after a couple of years they asked for quarterly. I think THAT'S overkill but given our organizational maturity index I work it for all it's worth.
Thank You to normzone for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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