The Cove Business Standards Discussion Forums
Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed
Please read this thread...
Software update
Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >
Forum Username

Elsmar Cove Forum Visitor Notice(s)

Wooden Line

Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed - Page 2

Monitor the Elsmar Forum
Courtesy Quick Links


Links Elsmar Cove visitors will find useful in the quest for knowledge and support:

Jennifer Kirley's
Conway Business Services


Howard's
International Quality Services


Marcelo Antunes'
SQR Consulting, and
Medical Devices Expert Forum


Bob Doering
Bob Doering's Blogs and,
Correct SPC - Precision Machining


Ajit Basrur
Claritas Consulting, LLC



International Standards Bodies - World Wide Standards Bodies

AIAG - Automotive Industry Action Group

ASQ - American Society for Quality

International Organization for Standardization - ISO Standards and Information

NIST's Engineering Statistics Handbook

IRCA - International Register of Certified Auditors

SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers

Quality Digest

IEST - Institute of Environmental Sciences and Technology


Some Related Topic Tags
audit nonconformances and findings, corrective action (ca), internal audits
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Content Display Modes
  Post Number #9  
Old 24th March 2018, 11:08 AM
Randy's Avatar
Randy

 
 
Total Posts: 8,726
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Without even looking at the whole thing here's what I'll guess, the audit schedule and the audits were set up to look at the whole organization, something that's not required at all...Nope, not one bit So any negative results from not doing just that are self inflicted wounds.

Taking the time to actually read what is required we'll see that it's the management system, and not the organization that is required to be audited for it's effectiveness. The management system is all that dribble talk we find between 4.1 to 10.3 (4.1, 4.2 & 4.3 are actually out of sequence because 4.4.1 should be 1st with everything following it's requirements, but that would make too much sense)

Sidney kind of pegged it when he brought out importance and risk as well as previous results and of course the lack of added value.

You guys are probably trying to do too much, with too little, in too short of a time frame, a guaranteed formula for "lack of success"

Sponsored Links
  Post Number #10  
Old 25th March 2018, 09:11 AM
Kronos147

 
 
Total Posts: 301
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Randy View Post

You guys are probably trying to do too much, with too little, in too short of a time frame, a guaranteed formula for "lack of success"
Recipe for failure.
  Post Number #11  
Old 25th March 2018, 11:26 AM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Total Posts: 14,217
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by RoxaneB View Post

Personally, I've never truly been a fan of multiple (mini) audits throughout the year. I prefer full-blown system audits. It does require a commitment from internal resources for a larger chunk of time (instead of small chunks over a space of time), but I find it provides a much better picture as to the state and health of the management system.
CBs are being paid a significant amount of money to do full system audits, and if you find that periodic well-targeted audits don't provide useful information as to the state of the system, there's something wrong with the periodic audits or the review of the results.

As for the CB requiring makeups, I think it's questionable and unless it's an explicit contractual requirement I might push back. If it is an explicit contractual requirement, you have a contract review problem.
  Post Number #12  
Old 25th March 2018, 04:43 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,254
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Jim Wynne View Post

As for the CB requiring makeups, I think it's questionable and unless it's an explicit contractual requirement I might push back. If it is an explicit contractual requirement, you have a contract review problem.
Would you think the same if, instead of unperformed internal audits, the nonconformity was due to unperformed product inspection and tests? I.e., the organization shipped products without inspecting and testing them, according to the product quality plan.

If the CB doesn’t enforce any containment for the organization lack of adherence to an internal audit plan, the organization, which very likely believes internal audits are a waste of time and effort, will be “rewarded” for not doing something they are supposed to do.
  Post Number #13  
Old 25th March 2018, 06:34 PM
Jim Wynne's Avatar
Jim Wynne

 
 
Total Posts: 14,217
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

Would you think the same if, instead of unperformed internal audits, the nonconformity was due to unperformed product inspection and tests? I.e., the organization shipped products without inspecting and testing them, according to the product quality plan.

If the CB doesn’t enforce any containment for the organization lack of adherence to an internal audit plan, the organization, which very likely believes internal audits are a waste of time and effort, will be “rewarded” for not doing something they are supposed to do.
I don't think it is or should be a system of rewards and punishments. In the example you cite, do you think it would be reasonable to make the organization redo whatever it was that was missed in shipping NC product? I'm not going to make any hard-and-fast judgments in the present case, but I think that the normal CA route--here's what we did wrong and here's what we're going to do about it--should suffice. This is especially so if the CB can't point to any evidence that the system was truly compromised by the omissions.
  Post Number #14  
Old 25th March 2018, 07:07 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,254
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Jim Wynne View Post

In the example you cite, do you think it would be reasonable to make the organization redo whatever it was that was missed in shipping NC product?
Without a question in that example, part of the containment would require recall of the products for proper conformity verification.

As for the case in this thread, it is clear that the organization themselves don't see the benefit in the internal audit program. Otherwise, they would have "made them up" before the situation being uncovered by the CB.

That is the biggest issue at hand. Internal audits are perceived as a waste by most certified organizations. And the reality is: they are right, as the vast majority of internal audits performed out there are poorly planned, terribly executed, by auditors who have not been made competent and have zero value to the organization's management. And CB's are accomplices in letting this sad state of affairs with totally ineffective internal audits being perpetuated.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #15  
Old 26th March 2018, 08:08 AM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,039
Thumbs up Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

Without a question in that example, part of the containment would require recall of the products for proper conformity verification.

As for the case in this thread, it is clear that the organization themselves don't see the benefit in the internal audit program. Otherwise, they would have "made them up" before the situation being uncovered by the CB.

That is the biggest issue at hand. Internal audits are perceived as a waste by most certified organizations. And the reality is: they are right, as the vast majority of internal audits performed out there are poorly planned, terribly executed, by auditors who have not been made competent and have zero value to the organization's management. And CB's are accomplices in letting this sad state of affairs with totally ineffective internal audits being perpetuated.
Amen, bro...
  Post Number #16  
Old 29th March 2018, 01:32 PM
jgreen39

 
 
Total Posts: 3
Re: Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed

I typically perform one full system audit per year that covers all of my processes. I put together a 3 person team, and it typically takes 2 days. We have an opening meeting prior to, and a closing meeting with the entire management team when we are finished.

We are very good about completing LPA's and Control Plan Audits throughout the year, and data from these audits drive any additional Internal Audits that may be required.

Auditing done correctly and used for more than paperwork compliance can be a great tool.
Reply

Lower Navigation Bar
Go Back   The Elsmar Cove Business Systems and Standards Discussion Forums > >

Bookmarks



Visitors Currently Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 Registered Visitors (Members) and 1 Unregistered Guest Visitors)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Forum Search
Display Modes Rate Thread Content
Rate Thread Content:

Forum Posting Settings
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Emoticons are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Discussion Threads
Discussion Thread Title Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post or Poll Vote
Internal Audits performed by another local business scottjoh1412 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 26 23rd February 2018 07:42 PM
Internal Audits - What if performed by consultant amanbhai Internal Auditing 9 26th February 2010 12:33 PM
Correction, Corrective Action, and Preventive Action differences - Internal Audits KidPaddy Internal Auditing 10 8th July 2009 06:13 AM
Internal Audits not performed - Useful data from internal audit schedule selena15 Internal Auditing 31 4th December 2008 06:48 PM
Internal audits not completed - Is it acceptable to write a corrective action? C Emmons Internal Auditing 30 13th January 2003 04:08 PM



The time now is 02:52 AM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.



Misc. Internal Links


NOTE: This forum uses "Cookies"