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ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
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ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit
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  Post Number #9  
Old 29th May 2018, 10:03 PM
Jen Kirley's Avatar
Jen Kirley

 
 
Total Posts: 6,135
Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Welcome to the Cove!

Your auditor has it backwards. The audit has not even started yet - the opening meeting has not been conducted. He should review your system and practices while on site, and compare them to the standard and your procedures. Since documented procedures are not required in most cases, I ask for the procedure if I find something that looks like it does not conform to requirements.

I would politely decline and indicate they will be made available during the audit.
Thank You to Jen Kirley for your informative Post and/or Attachment!

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  Post Number #10  
Old 30th May 2018, 06:50 PM
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Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Jen Kirley View Post

Welcome to the Cove!

Your auditor has it backwards. The audit has not even started yet - the opening meeting has not been conducted. He should review your system and practices while on site, and compare them to the standard and your procedures. Since documented procedures are not required in most cases, I ask for the procedure if I find something that looks like it does not conform to requirements.

I would politely decline and indicate they will be made available during the audit.
Yep, you may be getting the sow's ear instead of the silk purse.
  Post Number #11  
Old 30th May 2018, 07:56 PM
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Sidney Vianna

 
 
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Exclamation Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Golfman25 View Post

Why punch him in the nose? If he is actually trying to understand what you do and how, why not help him.
That is a fair question. For those few of us who teach (or taught) management system lead auditor classes, we know that a LOT OF PLANNING AND PREPARATION is paramount for an effective audit. So, a competent, responsible and professional auditor could be asking for process-related documentation, in order to better prepare him/herself for a value added audit.

Unfortunately, there are some unscrupulous people who double up as auditors and consultants, and, many times, use the documents they gain access to, as auditors, for their consulting practices. One has to be aware of this reality before, naively, providing the external auditor any of their command media.
  Post Number #12  
Old 31st May 2018, 05:18 AM
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Scanton

 
 
Total Posts: 54
Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

I managed ISO9001, 14001 & 18001 systems for a couple of decades and never received a request like this before however I have been managing a TS (now IATF) system for the last six years and before every (annual) audit I am being asked to provide a copy of our quality manual, associated procedures and the results of our performance metrics for the last 12 months, for a pre-audit off site documentation audit.

I have often wondered if this is standard practice or just a preference thing for our CB because it does feel like I am doing their pre-audit work for them.
The CB I use is one of the big five internationally, and it is standard practice for them, so I would be interested in what other people are experiencing.
I just want to note that my auditor is working 100% for the CB and has not and does not work as a consultant, although I do understand that he could quite easily move into consultancy at a later date with the experience he has gained from being a CB auditor.
  Post Number #13  
Old 31st May 2018, 07:01 AM
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Howard Atkins

 
 
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Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

There is a requirement in IATF to perform off site preplanning that requires data as to management review, customer satisfaction etc.
In the transition to IATF there must be an OFFSITE review of all the required documentation for this standard or the transition audit cannot be performed
IATF is a scheme that is not run by the national accreditation bodies and as such is not comparable to ISO 9001 etc..

From IATF rules
Quote:
5.7.1 Client information for audit planning
The certification body shall require the client to provide the following information to be used as input for
developing an audit plan:
a} the number of employees of the site and all associated remote support location{s};
b} the client's quality management system documentation, including evidence about conformity to IATF 16949 requirements and showing the linkages and interfaces to any remote support functions and /or
outsourced processes;
c} customer and intemal performance data since the previous audit;
d} customer satisfaction and complaint summary since the previous audit, including a copy of the latest customer reports andor scorecards;
e} identification of any customer special status condition since the previous audit;
f} notification about any new customers since the previous audit; and
g} results of internal audits and management review since the previous audit.
Thank You to Howard Atkins for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #14  
Old 31st May 2018, 07:15 AM
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Total Posts: 832
Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

That is a fair question. For those few of us who teach (or taught) management system lead auditor classes, we know that a LOT OF PLANNING AND PREPARATION is paramount for an effective audit. So, a competent, responsible and professional auditor could be asking for process-related documentation, in order to better prepare him/herself for a value added audit.

Unfortunately, there are some unscrupulous people who double up as auditors and consultants, and, many times, use the documents they gain access to, as auditors, for their consulting practices. One has to be aware of this reality before, naively, providing the external auditor any of their command media.
True. And yet, if it will be a problem providing docs before audit, it will also be so providing docs during the audit. In other words the unscrupulous auditor is a problem independent of whether or not docs are shared ahead of time for audit prep.
Thanks to Pancho for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #15  
Old 31st May 2018, 08:26 AM
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Scanton

 
 
Total Posts: 54
Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Allym, I think it is unanimously agreed that this isnít a requirement for ISO9001 audits however it may be a something your CB has made standard practice for their auditors. Are we allowed to name our certification companies or will this breach certain rules?

With my current employer I have had 2 certification and 4 surveillance TS audits and a transition/certification audit to IATF, and in every instance the same request for documentation and metrics has been made. I can understand needing this level of audit prep for a certification/transition audit however I wanted to know if this was also a requirement for a surveillance audits?

Personally I found the practice beneficial as the auditor can hit the ground running and not waste time on the first day trying to understand the basic interactions of your QMS. In my experience the end result is a better quality, meaningful assessment/evaluation of the QMS, however I understand the reluctance to hand over digital copies of your documentation to auditors who are also consultants where they could be limited to physical copies or views of digital copies on the day which are controllable/recoverable.
Thanks to Scanton for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #16  
Old 31st May 2018, 09:59 AM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,339
Re: ISO 9001:2015 registrar Auditor requesting copies of procedure prior to audit

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by dsanabria View Post

Be aware that good 3t party auditors will audit your processes to the standard.
This assertion is blatantly incorrect and has to be challenged so people donít misunderstand the expectations of what competent CB auditors have to do.

Any audit has a scope and criteria. The typical criteria of a CB auditor includes standard(s), the organization own QMS requirements, customer requirements, regulatory requirements, etc. A CB auditor who fails to assess the QMS against the organizationís own command media is incompetent.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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