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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation - Page 2

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  Post Number #9  
Old 24th June 2018, 07:15 PM
Jen Kirley's Avatar
Jen Kirley

 
 
Total Posts: 6,159
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Alisomed View Post

This is the standard practice in our company except documenting the NCR is considered an expensive exercise and people question if there is a regulation that states clearly if scrap also needs to be documented. If there is some SW like MES that indicates scrap rate that should be enough for keeping metrics on scrap. The documentation for NCR seems unnecessary.
We could argue that scrap is more expensive than solving the problems.

Certainly scrap rates should be noted, so you can address the "vital few." But how long do you want to wait to actually solve the problems? Scrap represents piles of money in boxes or on the floor. We should not need a regulation to try to save money.

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  Post Number #10  
Old 25th June 2018, 11:34 AM
Alisomed

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Thank you all for the helpful replies.

Ken,

I still need to tie it to a regulation as people try to get away if there is no verbatim reference.

Thanks.
  Post Number #11  
Old 25th June 2018, 11:46 AM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 891
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

...Anyone who is trying to hide behind needing a regulation doesn't want to be "found out" that the process they are responsible for is costing the organization money...
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Sidney Vianna View Post

...The hidden agenda behind the resistance to document scrap is asymptomatic of a major dysfunction. Any organization that resists the basic notion of documenting rejected and dispositioned as scrap product is playing silly games...
To be charitable to the OP and their organisation, it's possible that there's another explanation. It may be that their established process for documenting NCs is robust (see Ninja's post), but when it comes to less significant items the process seems overly onerous.

When I hear "where's the regulation?", I'll often read it as "do we really need to do this?". In this interpretation, the problem is more failing to understanding why it's valuable, and that there may be easier approaches - not necessarily that there are nefarious motives at play.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Jen Kirley View Post

...Scrap represents piles of money in boxes or on the floor...
This may also not be the case.

Here's an example from personal experience:

We used to have a single form for documenting NCs. It was quite detailed - which was good in most cases. However, every so often during assembly, a screw would fail to screw in properly (e.g. it was bent slightly, or threads were damaged). This would be a component non-conformance, but it seemed totally overkill to use the NC form every time this happened. The screws are less than pennies apiece, and they are always just scrapped.

So, to deal with this, we adopted another system for logging such NCs - Just table with a few columns detailing the when, what, and disposition (pretty much exclusively scrap) - something assembly personnel can fill out in a matter of seconds.

If the OP's situation is like this, then I can understand why management would be wondering "why are we doing this?". To the OP: if this is like your situation, understand that you can develop alternate methods, and the NC data can still be useful in the long-term.

Last edited by Mark Meer; 25th June 2018 at 12:06 PM.
Thank You to Mark Meer for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #12  
Old 25th June 2018, 12:32 PM
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Bev D

 
 
Total Posts: 3,629
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Agree with Mark.
the important regulatory requirement in most standards is the identification of non-conforming material to prevent it's use in a non-conforming state or - during more paranoid days - of use by enemy countries or black market resellers. so called 'toe tags' or 'red bins', etc.

The toe tag would have very little info on it, but usually enough for the engineer or MRB to disposition the material. if the disposition was patently obvious (scrap) then disposing of the material in a red bin that would later be emptied and scrapped was used. If the industry were sufficiently regulated (e.g. Aerospace), there might be requirements for accountability/traceability of the material.

So the OP may very well have a good reason for asking about 'over documentation depending on their industry.

In general I've never found the tracking of NCs to be all that much helpful except for financial accounting and prioritization purposes. this is because the cause - unless there was an obvious 'oops' by operator or equipment - is simply unknown without hands on investigation.
  Post Number #13  
Old 25th June 2018, 12:54 PM
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ScottK

 
 
Total Posts: 2,760
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Can I ask a question....

are we talking
A) scrap due to nonconforming product found during or after the process?
or
B) scrap due to set-up, change over, shutdown, leftover material, etc... i.e. expected scrap?

Because I would not write an NC for B.
Thanks to ScottK for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #14  
Old 25th June 2018, 01:15 PM
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Ninja

 
 
Total Posts: 1,083
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by ScottK View Post

Can I ask a question....

are we talking
A) scrap due to nonconforming product found during or after the process?
or
B) scrap due to set-up, change over, shutdown, leftover material, etc... i.e. expected scrap?

Because I would not write an NC for B.
Nor for a bent screw...I would just replace it and have no NC to record...the part would never make it that far before it was just fixed.
  Post Number #15  
Old 25th June 2018, 02:30 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Question Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Alisomed View Post

Thank you all for the helpful replies.

Ken,

I still need to tie it to a regulation as people try to get away if there is no verbatim reference.

Thanks.
Which "people"?
  Post Number #16  
Old 25th June 2018, 02:32 PM
AndyN's Avatar
AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,118
Lightbulb Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post

To be charitable to the OP and their organisation, it's possible that there's another explanation. It may be that their established process for documenting NCs is robust (see Ninja's post), but when it comes to less significant items the process seems overly onerous.

When I hear "where's the regulation?", I'll often read it as "do we really need to do this?". In this interpretation, the problem is more failing to understanding why it's valuable, and that there may be easier approaches - not necessarily that there are nefarious motives at play.



This may also not be the case.

Here's an example from personal experience:

We used to have a single form for documenting NCs. It was quite detailed - which was good in most cases. However, every so often during assembly, a screw would fail to screw in properly (e.g. it was bent slightly, or threads were damaged). This would be a component non-conformance, but it seemed totally overkill to use the NC form every time this happened. The screws are less than pennies apiece, and they are always just scrapped.

So, to deal with this, we adopted another system for logging such NCs - Just table with a few columns detailing the when, what, and disposition (pretty much exclusively scrap) - something assembly personnel can fill out in a matter of seconds.

If the OP's situation is like this, then I can understand why management would be wondering "why are we doing this?". To the OP: if this is like your situation, understand that you can develop alternate methods, and the NC data can still be useful in the long-term.
If your process was to complete a NCPR every time you discovered a bent screw, your process needs changing. That's NOT what ISO 9001 has ever required this, but DOES require a record.
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