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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
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  Post Number #17  
Old 25th June 2018, 07:10 PM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 842
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

Nor for a bent screw...I would just replace it and have no NC to record...the part would never make it that far before it was just fixed.
Question: why the exception for a bent screw? In practice, we treat all components that go into final product the same - If they are found to be NC during assembly, it is documented.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Bev D View Post

...In general I've never found the tracking of NCs to be all that much helpful except for financial accounting and prioritization purposes. this is because the cause - unless there was an obvious 'oops' by operator or equipment - is simply unknown without hands on investigation.
With respect to scrapped items, this definitely tends to be the case in practice. However, while financial impact is certainly the most obvious thing one can derive from such documented NCs, they may also help to indicate:
  • Potential issues in receiving inspections - e.g. why are NCs being identified in assembly and not caught in receiving? Perhaps the receiving sampling can be adjusted?
  • Potential issues with a particular batch of components - e.g. why are all the NCs within a particular date range?
  • Potential issues with personnel/training - e.g. why is it the same person logging all the NCs?

Also, the preponderance of the same NC overtime may eventually lead to a decision to investigate subsequent instances more thoroughly.

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  Post Number #18  
Old 26th June 2018, 10:43 AM
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Ninja

 
 
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Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

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In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post

Question: why the exception for a bent screw? In practice, we treat all components that go into final product the same - If they are found to be NC during assembly, it is documented.
Well, there is certainly an assumption here on my part...that being WHEN the bent screw was identified.

Assuming as I have that during the fab of the part someone tried to put in a screw, found it bent and unusable, and got a good screw to use instead...the only thing I MIGHT choose to document is that another screw was used...but I might not even bother doing that. When you make stuff, non-perfect situations happen every day, why waste the time and paper?

If that assumption is incorrect, and it was passed down the line to further process steps or final QC and found there I would document it...there is more of a systemic issue.

Formally document every time something doesn't work ideally and was addressed in a minute during the same process? Hardly. It would be like filing paperwork for dropping my screwdriver.

Formally document that a process step allowed NC product into further manufacturing? Certainly.

At the end of the day, it ends up for me at cost/benefit (or risk analysis if you prefer). If I complained to Home Depot every time I pulled a roofing nail out of the box that didn't have a head on it, I'd never get the roof on. If I found the box of roofing nails actually contained screws, I'd complain.

FWIW: I am also assuming that there is a corporate culture that supports the assembly person to complain upwards when they face bent screws every single day...
  Post Number #19  
Old 26th June 2018, 11:26 AM
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AndyN

 
 
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Laughing Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

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In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

When you make stuff, non-perfect situations happen every day, why waste the time and paper?
Ouch...
  Post Number #20  
Old 26th June 2018, 11:54 AM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 842
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

...Formally document every time something doesn't work ideally and was addressed in a minute during the same process? Hardly. It would be like filing paperwork for dropping my screwdriver.

Formally document that a process step allowed NC product into further manufacturing? Certainly.

At the end of the day, it ends up for me at cost/benefit (or risk analysis if you prefer)....
I agree with the cost/benefit at the end of the day...
But just for discussion sake, let's take another example:

I have a (moderately) high value plastic component. Again, just like with the screw, sometimes during assembly this part is found to be non-conforming (giant burr, slightly warped and doesn't fit...whatever). As with the screw, these are almost always just scrapped and a new one used - nothing NC goes further up manufacturing.

If this is a regular occurrence, I'm loosing money! As I said in the previous post, a preponderance of such cases might be good grounds for revising our receiving sampling, or supplier controls.

But, were I treat this like the screw and focus purely on "does it allow NC product into further manufacturing?", these would all get scrapped and go undocumented. Other than, as you say, relying on a corporate culture, there would be nothing in place to identify this as an issue (except, perhaps, in the long term some accounting queries I suppose).
Thanks to Mark Meer for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #21  
Old 26th June 2018, 12:14 PM
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Ninja

 
 
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Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post

I agree with the cost/benefit at the end of the day...
But just for discussion sake, let's take another example:

I have a (moderately) high value plastic component. Again, just like with the screw, sometimes during assembly this part is found to be non-conforming (giant burr, slightly warped and doesn't fit...whatever). As with the screw, these are almost always just scrapped and a new one used - nothing NC goes further up manufacturing.

If this is a regular occurrence, I'm loosing money!
Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

At the end of the day, it ends up for me at cost/benefit (or risk analysis if you prefer).

FWIW: I am also assuming that there is a corporate culture that supports the assembly person to complain upwards when they face bent screws every single day...
Totally agree.

If I bought a box of screws, and one or two were bent...I'd just move along.
If I bought a truckload of kitchen cabinets and two were broken...different response.

Both of these happen every day, and neither one of them is worth building a new system to address...and you are quite correct, the impact on the business is a primary factor for determining the response.
When the folks noticing the bad screws complain to each other, but not to folks who can do something about it...working on the culture can have tremendous impact. Making them fill out forms much less so.

In either case...if the 'broken thing' was used anyway, and moved down the line to the next step anyway...that has to be addressed almost regardless of screw or cabinet. It is a symptom of a deeper systemic problem.
  Post Number #22  
Old 26th June 2018, 12:22 PM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,956
Let Me Help You Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

Totally agree.

If I bought a box of screws, and one or two were bent...I'd just move along.
If I bought a truckload of kitchen cabinets and two were broken...different response.
Don't you have to record it to know you've only got one or two? You're speaking from a position based on knowledge of the size of the issue. For many, in manufacturing, we don't know how often these things happen, without some kind of tally being kept. It's simply too easy to discuss a situation, created to justify a position and give the wrong impression of what the ISO 9001 requirements do for a business. Yes, you must record non-conformities, yes, you might decide not to do anything about it - but you still need the data and analysis to back that up...
  Post Number #23  
Old 26th June 2018, 12:34 PM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 842
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

...When the folks noticing the bad screws complain to each other, but not to folks who can do something about it...working on the culture can have tremendous impact. Making them fill out forms much less so..
While I can totally appreciate the value of culture, it is hardly a reliable control, and it is normally not the assembly personnel making decisions. They may (ideally) notify higher-ups and say "hey, I'm noticing I'm scrapping a lot of plastics". Management will immediately want to know "how many" & "why". If such specifics aren't documented, it's difficult to get management (who are removed from the process) to act.

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Ninja View Post

...In either case...if the 'broken thing' was used anyway, and moved down the line to the next step anyway...that has to be addressed almost regardless of screw or cabinet. It is a symptom of a deeper systemic problem.
I think we can all agree that if NC components are potentially being passed though production there is an issue.

...but what this thread has become is a discussion of whether NCs should/need to be documented even if there is no risk of them impacting final product.

(good discussion BTW )
Thanks to Mark Meer for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #24  
Old 26th June 2018, 01:18 PM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,956
Question Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post


...but what this thread has become is a discussion of whether NCs should/need to be documented even if there is no risk of them impacting final product.

(good discussion BTW )
Why wouldn't you want to do that? Only documenting them IF they affect final product seems a little ridiculous to me... But I'm all ears...
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