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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
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  Post Number #25  
Old 26th June 2018, 01:53 PM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 885
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

Why wouldn't you want to do that? Only documenting them IF they affect final product seems a little ridiculous to me... But I'm all ears...
I'm not arguing this..like I say, we treat all components the same and just log all identified NCs.

But, were I to argue this, I'd boil it down to a cost-benefit (risk) analysis.

In the case of screws, for example, we might determine the part is so low value that scrapping nearly any amount is not a significant financial issue and, due to other established controls (receiving/supplier) the occurrence rate is likely acceptably low. In this case (low probability, low impact), the cost/burden of implementing/maintaining/analysing a system whereby these NC are documented outweighs the risk posed by the NCs.

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  Post Number #26  
Old 26th June 2018, 02:55 PM
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Ninja

 
 
Total Posts: 1,032
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post

I'm not arguing this..like I say, we treat all components the same and just log all identified NCs.

But, were I to argue this, I'd boil it down to a cost-benefit (risk) analysis.

In the case of screws, for example, we might determine the part is so low value that scrapping nearly any amount is not a significant financial issue and, due to other established controls (receiving/supplier) the occurrence rate is likely acceptably low. In this case (low probability, low impact), the cost/burden of implementing/maintaining/analysing a system whereby these NC are documented outweighs the risk posed by the NCs.
I do the same. If it does not impact final product, it is a cost/benefit.

As is normal, differing views (or simply different sides of the same topic) tend to move to escalation in order to make the viewpoints clear...normal forum stuff.
In real life, little is so extreme...or even big enough to be noticed sometimes.

Normal every-day: I'm using 30 screws to put together an assembly, one didn't thread right so I grabbed another out of the bin of 1000 screws.

Extreme one way: Don't write up NCR for bent screws...ever.

Extreme the other way: write up NCR for everything that wasn't ideal.

Reality: If there was a 2% reject rate for screws, you'd hear the assembly folks cursing every minute of every day.
If every unusable screw generated paperwork, it would be management doing the cursing. (Which, I think, is where this thread started, though not with screws...)

Never write an NC if you can fix the problem: Unreasonable...broken system.
Write an NC every time a trash bag rips: Unreasonable...Overbearing system. (That's just the lowest cost thing I could think of...)

For the OP...it matters pretty much where the "scrap" came from, and why.
If it was big enough to include the word "disposition" in the process...it usually means that it was big enough to find out why it happened...and to document it.
I've never seen anyone disposition a bent screw...
Thanks to Ninja for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #27  
Old 26th June 2018, 03:39 PM
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Bev D

 
 
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Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

So my organization uses a financial threshold for documented NC/scrap. If the part is under the threshold, the operator tosses in a red bin and gets another part. there is no "NC record". the nonconforming part is identified and controlled because it is in controlled red scrap bin (think sharp's bin).

We really don't operators wasting time recording these events; we want them building shippable parts.

We DO however track the amount of scrap.

It's simple, we know how many of the parts we buy. We know how many are issued to the work order in our ERP system. and we know how many finished parts we yield. that gives us the amount of scrap - or as some call it - shrinkage. Is it precisely accurate - no. is it accurate enough to tell us if we have a problem to solve and it's relative cost to the organization - absolutely.
Thank You to Bev D for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #28  
Old 26th June 2018, 03:55 PM
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Ninja

 
 
Total Posts: 1,032
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Cost/benefit working well...great example!
  Post Number #29  
Old 26th June 2018, 04:55 PM
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Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,254
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Mark Meer View Post

(good discussion BTW )
We could reduce a lot of speculation and assumptions if we knew the context of the OPís organization including the type of product. Recording NCR data can lead to intelligent management decisions. Eg, if you know that 85% of your scrap is originating from swing shift, that is very useful data.
  Post Number #30  
Old 27th June 2018, 04:37 AM
AgnieszkaSz

 
 
Total Posts: 84
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Being employed in injection moulding company now, I feel tempted to see this problem from a different angle. I completely agree that processes shouldn't produce scrap - and it is possible in assembly production. However, think about injection moulding of parts for which visual acceptance criteria are critical. It doesn't have to be car lights - it can be something as simple as a powder box. You wouldn't believe in scrap rates, they are often close to 50%. I can't even imagine proper NCR management in such cases - the effective corrective action would be tantamount to production stop. The trouble is, the injection moulding tool is usually designed and provided by customer - and customers often are aware that the tool has been wrongly designed or is in poor condition, but investments in new tooling are economically unacceptable for them. So both parties agree that scrap runs in the background and constitutes part of item price.
Thanks to AgnieszkaSz for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #31  
Old 27th June 2018, 08:21 AM
QC Dave

 
 
Total Posts: 15
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by AndyN View Post

Don't you have to record it to know you've only got one or two? You're speaking from a position based on knowledge of the size of the issue. For many, in manufacturing, we don't know how often these things happen, without some kind of tally being kept. It's simply too easy to discuss a situation, created to justify a position and give the wrong impression of what the ISO 9001 requirements do for a business. Yes, you must record non-conformities, yes, you might decide not to do anything about it - but you still need the data and analysis to back that up...
It sounds like it is more a matter of HOW you document. I wonder if, after a couple bent screws are found, that if should be reported to the inspector/auditor. They would then pass that information along to the QC Manager or other QC person of authority. It would be up to that person to make the decision as to HOW to document it.

If it is a very low value item like a screw, he/she may decide to have the processors keep a simple tally of how many bent screws show up each shift and do this over a period of time to determine how big of a problem it is. If he/she determines that it is a big problem, then they might take steps to fix the problem, either with increased raw materials inspections or by contacting the supplier.

If it is a very high value item or a low value item, but a very critical one (for instance a $0.50 bolt, but one that holds the engine in a car), then then he/she might decide to issue a CAR or approach the situation more aggressively.

Just my 2 cents.

QCDave

Last edited by QC Dave; 27th June 2018 at 08:22 AM. Reason: Left off my name.
Thank You to QC Dave for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #32  
Old 27th June 2018, 09:08 AM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 9,039
Thumbs up Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Excellent post, Dave. You caught my thoughts exactly.
Thank You to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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