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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
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Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation
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  Post Number #1  
Old 22nd June 2018, 05:25 PM
Alisomed

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Question Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Can someone point me to a regulation (specific clause) that talks about scrap as being recorded as NCR? Why do we have to document scrap as non-conformance as it is anyways going to be dispositioned as "reject"?

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  Post Number #2  
Old 22nd June 2018, 05:43 PM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,609
Lightbulb re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Alisomed View Post

Can someone point me to a regulation (specific clause) that talks about scrap as being recorded as NCR? Why do we have to document scrap as non-conformance as it is anyways going to be dispositioned as "reject"?
Alisomed,

Your countryís national standard for quality management systems, ISO 9001 (clause 8.7), requires a record be made to describe that nature of a product's nonconformity.

It also requires you to record the action taken (in your case scrap and replace) to disposition nonconforming product.

Scrapping nonconforming product without recording the the nature of the nonconformity allows your system to continue producing scrap.

Instead of we analyze the records, determine the causes and take action to remove the root causes thereby reducing waste.

Your question surprises me (why avoid making the record to invoke corrective action?) so Iím hoping that Iíve understood your question correctly.

John
  Post Number #3  
Old 22nd June 2018, 06:56 PM
Mark Meer

 
 
Total Posts: 859
re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Alisomed View Post

Can someone point me to a regulation (specific clause) that talks about scrap as being recorded as NCR? Why do we have to document scrap as non-conformance as it is anyways going to be dispositioned as "reject"?
I am also not certain I understand the question. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it appears you have the order-of-events backwards.

Correct:
1. Item is determined to be non-conforming
2. Disposition decision is made to scrap the item

Incorrect:
1. Item is determined to be scrap
2. Decision is made whether or not the item is non-conforming

The main purpose of logging NCRs is to document a) that a non-conformance was identified (what & when); and b) what was done with it (disposition). As John points out, this can yield valuable data and opportunities for improvement.
Thank You to Mark Meer for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #4  
Old 23rd June 2018, 09:36 PM
Alisomed

 
 
Total Posts: 7
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Mark and John,

Thank you for the reply.

Correct:
1. Item is determined to be non-conforming
2. Disposition decision is made to scrap the item


This is the standard practice in our company except documenting the NCR is considered an expensive exercise and people question if there is a regulation that states clearly if scrap also needs to be documented. If there is some SW like MES that indicates scrap rate that should be enough for keeping metrics on scrap. The documentation for NCR seems unnecessary.
  Post Number #5  
Old 24th June 2018, 12:34 PM
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Ninja

 
 
Total Posts: 1,024
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

I think you're still missing something in the order of things...

1. Item is determined to be non-conforming
- Measurment is made
- Gathered data is compared to acceptance Criteria
- Documentation of whether part is acceptable or not
- If acceptable...move along the process
- If not acceptable...NCR (This comes BEFORE decision for disposition)


2. Disposition decision is made to scrap the item
- NCR already exists
- Disposition decision is made to scrap the item
- Document this decision...likely right on the NCR that already exists.

Rewording the question you are asking (simply to highlight the backwards order)...
Do we have to determine whether a part is acceptable or not before we choose to scrap it?
The answer to this will always be "Yes"...
and the NCR happens before disposition decisions are made...before the word "Scrap" ever shows up.
  Post Number #6  
Old 24th June 2018, 12:43 PM
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AndyN

 
 
Total Posts: 8,973
Let Me Help You Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Quote:
In Reply to Parent Post by Alisomed View Post

Mark and John,

Thank you for the reply.

Correct:
1. Item is determined to be non-conforming
2. Disposition decision is made to scrap the item


This is the standard practice in our company except documenting the NCR is considered an expensive exercise and people question if there is a regulation that states clearly if scrap also needs to be documented. If there is some SW like MES that indicates scrap rate that should be enough for keeping metrics on scrap. The documentation for NCR seems unnecessary.
Of course! If people are not held accountable for documenting the scrap they can't be held responsible for it! Anyone who is trying to hide behind needing a regulation doesn't want to be "found out" that the process they are responsible for is costing the organization money. Once they start recording what causes scrap, then they may see it's actually NOT their problem, but may in fact be caused by another process. But whatever happens, management are not serious about doing anything until non-conforming product - which becomes scrap - is accounted for. "What gets measured gets managed"...
Thank You to AndyN for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #7  
Old 24th June 2018, 02:17 PM
John Broomfield's Avatar
John Broomfield

 
 
Total Posts: 2,609
Quid Pro Quo Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

It looks as if youíve nailed it Andy.

Do we have a factory within a factory?

Iíd like to know what happens to the scrap.

...is it sold to a relative or a good friend?
Thank You to John Broomfield for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
  Post Number #8  
Old 24th June 2018, 05:06 PM
Sidney Vianna's Avatar
Sidney Vianna

 
 
Total Posts: 9,350
Re: Scrap is NCR or not - What regulation

Agree wholeheartedly with Andy and John. The hidden agenda behind the resistance to document scrap is asymptomatic of a major dysfunction. Any organization that resists the basic notion of documenting rejected and dispositioned as scrap product is playing silly games.

Why do you have to document the NCR? To make decisions based on facts. Factual approach to decision making. Without records you donít have data. Without data, you are managing by gut feel.

Documenting nonconforming products is one of the most basic, early steps in any organization journey of establishing a quality system. Without a solid foundation, an organization never builds itself any higher.
Thanks to Sidney Vianna for your informative Post and/or Attachment!
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