The Elsmar Cove Wiki More Free Files The Elsmar Cove Forums Discussion Thread Index Post Attachments Listing Failure Modes Services and Solutions to Problems Elsmar cove Forums Main Page Elsmar Cove Home Page

Welcome to the Elsmar Cove discussion forums! Registering to participate in the Elsmar Cove Forums is Free. You do have to Register for many features and functions such as E-Mail Digests, Notification of New Posts and/or Threads, Personal Messaging and downloading of Post Attachments to work. If your intent is to simply scan/search for information, there is no advantage to registering. If you would like to Register, click HERE. If you would like to just browse the message base without registering, feel free to do so. Many of the forum software features are disabled for Unregistered Guests for security reasons. See This Thread for more information. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ and The Basic "How To's" in the Elsmar Cove Forums forum. By proceeding to browse these forums, you are expressing your interest in reading information in discussion threads and files attached to posts in discussion threads for research and/or educational purposes in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.
To browse without Registering, go to the forum or discussion thread that you want to view and click on it. A 'Lock' icon on a forum only means you are not Registered and therefore you can not Start a New thread or Reply to a Post in that forum.

This message header and advertisement will not show after you register and Log In.
Registration is FREE!


The Elsmar Cove Forum (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/index.php)
-   Internal Auditing (http://Elsmar.com/Forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133)
-   -  

Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001

(http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=39913)

jackweed13 8th March 2010 08:34 AM

Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
The scope of my internal audit was based on the scope of the management system. One of our departments in our scope (Accounting) was involved in the internal audit as a supporting process. We touched on several of their processes but a complete document review was not completed. Is this required prior to our certification audit? Must you perform a complete document review of all groups in the scope? We audited to the standard not the department. IS this a mistake?

Ron Rompen 8th March 2010 08:38 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions
 
You didn't mention which standard you were being audited to, but I will assume (for the moment) that you are pursuing either TS16949 or ISO9001.

In my past experience, Accounting/Finance is generally not included in the scope of a certification audit; the requirements for this are generally specified in other legislation, and are audited separately from the management system.

With that being said, it never hurts to perform your own review of the documentation process, to see where it interfaces with the rest of your system, and to ensure that it conforms to the same sort of standards that the rest of your processes do. One of the biggest inconsistencies that I have found over the years is the documentation system; Finance/Accounting always seems to have their own system, which never seems to match up to the rest of the company.

jackweed13 8th March 2010 08:52 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Hi Ron. Thanks for the quick reply. We are being audited to the ISO9001:2008 Standard. As you probably know, Accounting is subject to many internal audits for many different reasons. We selected the processes with could effect the product and/or customer. Our external audit is next week. During the management review this question came into play. There was no specific audit of this group alone. They were only involved from a supporting role. Will that be good enough for the auditor? Could he fail us based on the fact that group did not receive an internal audit on their systems alone?

qusys 8th March 2010 09:26 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
This is a matter of your internal audit plan and your related internal procedure.
If you have not selected the process or the management gave no input about it , you are in compliance.
On the contrary, if there have been some problem ( non conformities) in the support process to other core processes ( whose root cause has been addressed to accounting process) , you should have audited it as well.
I assume that you are not impacted by this issues.
However, the Registrar audit will assume the process of documentation control and record retention and could be also interview and check for evidence the Accounting process as well.
Remember that the audit will be based on process approach, so all the organization will be affected in a cross over manner.
To respond to your question , it is not important to have internally audit the accounting department, but to have assessed how it contribute to the compliance to standard of the organization, fo rexample in management of their documentation control or their records, based upon your internal procedure and compliance to the requirements of the Customers.
Hope this helps


Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by jackweed13 (Post 365543)
Hi Ron. Thanks for the quick reply. We are being audited to the ISO9001:2008 Standard. As you probably know, Accounting is subject to many internal audits for many different reasons. We selected the processes with could effect the product and/or customer. Our external audit is next week. During the management review this question came into play. There was no specific audit of this group alone. They were only involved from a supporting role. Will that be good enough for the auditor? Could he fail us based on the fact that group did not receive an internal audit on their systems alone?


somashekar 8th March 2010 10:36 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by jackweed13 (Post 365537)
The scope of my internal audit was based on the scope of the management system. One of our departments in our scope (Accounting) was involved in the internal audit as a supporting process. We touched on several of their processes but a complete document review was not completed. Is this required prior to our certification audit? Must you perform a complete document review of all groups in the scope? We audited to the standard not the department. IS this a mistake?

It is not a mistake but is maturity to involve the accounting as a supporting function in the QMS. How accounting comes in and performs certain activities to close loop of the various interdependent activities is the matter you are concerned with. You do not need to make or touch upon documents that accounting may have. Neither will the certification audit be keen on them. On the contrary the audit report should mention about accounting identified as a support function as one of your strong aspect.

samsung 8th March 2010 10:48 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by somashekar (Post 365557)
It is not a mistake but is maturity to involve the accounting as a supporting function in the QMS. How accounting comes in and performs certain activities to close loop of the various interdependent activities is the matter you are concerned with. You do not need to make or touch upon documents that accounting may have. Neither will the certification audit will be keen on them. On the contrary the audit report should mention about accounting identified as a support function as one of your strong aspect.

Why not ? just curious to know when accounting is identified and being managed as a process like any other process within the QMS, why not the process documentation of accounting be looked into? And if this aspect is ignored, will the intention of the management to include it as a (supporting) process within the QMS be fully realized ?

somashekar 8th March 2010 11:24 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by samsung (Post 365558)
Why not ? just curious to know when accounting is identified and being managed as a process like any other process within the QMS, why not the process documentation of accounting be looked into? And if this aspect is ignored, will the intention of the management to include it as a (supporting) process within the QMS be fully realized ?

I would be keen to know and understand what the " process documentation of accounting " is as mentioned here. Is it about the principle of accounting and the double entry system of book keeping ?
If it is this, then the independent financial auditor, bankers and other financial institutions will be involved on a regular basis, being a statutory requirement.

somerqc 8th March 2010 11:52 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
We have accounting as a critical aspect of our QMS.

Why?

1. Are you able to service your customers if you don't have cashflow? (re: not invoicing in a manner that ensures consistent cashflow)

2. Are you able to obtain necessary materials if you don't pay your bills? (re: accounting not paying bills as required?)

3. Are you able to not overpay for invoices if accounting does do what they should related to returned product? (re: debit/credit the vendor's account accordingly)

I guess I may have been around the block too many times to not include accounting in any QMS I create going forward.

When auditing accounting I do not worry about looking at the G/L etc. I look at the processes that accounting controls that may affect our ability to service our customers.

samsung 8th March 2010 11:55 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by somashekar (Post 365568)
I would be keen to know and understand what the " process documentation of accounting " is as mentioned here. Is it about the principle of accounting and the double entry system of book keeping ?
If it is this, then the independent financial auditor, bankers and other financial institutions will be involved on a regular basis, being a statutory requirement.

Any accounts process owner would certainly not prefer to have 'Principles of accounting' as part of his process documentation in the same way as a maintenance process owner wouldn't wish to have a document on 'principles of mechanical or electrical engineering' in their documents' list unless it's absolutely required by the QMS and I don't think it does.

As part of process documents they may have documented 'accounting policies', a documented process plan, quality plan, work instructions on how to carry out certain key activities, responsibilities/ authorities, record management & control, process objectives and many more like any other process documentation.

Quote:

If it is this, then the independent financial auditor, bankers and other financial institutions will be involved on a regular basis, being a statutory requirement.
Yes, they must be doing 'financial audits' at regular intervals and the management must be well aware of it while deciding to include this function within their QMS.

zekeQA 8th March 2010 01:04 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
Hi,

I have to agree with somerqc. I have been involved in many companies...in positions both inside and outside of the accounting office.

It seems to me that many times the accountants do not understand the processes that they are supposed to be accounting for. At the same time the operations people often do not speak "fluent accounting". This often leads to errors.

I heard of one company recently that was doing monthy or weekly cycle counts. (This is usually triggered by an auditor finding problems in the inventory numbers.) The cycle counts did not seem to include the parts that were showing in inventory, but were being staged to be shipped to customers. Unfortunatly, the individual who described the situation to me (now working for a different company) had it associated with "lean" management methods.

I think if you leave the G/L entries out and monitor the procedures you are doing great!

DrM2u 8th March 2010 01:23 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by jackweed13 (Post 365543)
Hi Ron. Thanks for the quick reply. We are being audited to the ISO9001:2008 Standard. As you probably know, Accounting is subject to many internal audits for many different reasons. We selected the processes with could effect the product and/or customer. Our external audit is next week. During the management review this question came into play. There was no specific audit of this group alone. They were only involved from a supporting role. Will that be good enough for the auditor? Could he fail us based on the fact that group did not receive an internal audit on their systems alone?

:applause: First of all, I believe that you have taken the smart and logical approach to auditing by incorporating the Accounting process. As a 3rd party and internal auditor I almost always included Accounting in my audits. There is astill a great debate whether Accounting should be audited, but I say YES and here is why:

- A/P (aka Accounts Payable): as part of the business process the organization needs to know when and how to pay their suppliers. Failure to pay a supplier as agreed on terms can result in the supplier not delivering materials and components when needed or even stopping to conduct business with you. In today's economy, this holds truer than ever as more and more suppliers want to be paid on time before they deliver again. Anyone who does not believe this is a fool.

- A/R (aka Accounts Receivable): as part of the business process the organization needs to be paid on time as agreed on terms. Anyone with some business sense can attest to the importance of cash flow, specially steady cash flow. Failure to get paid on time can put the organization in situations where they are not able to pay their employees, their suppliers or keep the doors open. It also can put the organization at high risk if the customer files for bankruptcy. It has happened many times where a suppleir shut down because they had too much money tied with a bankrupt customer.
(Note: I never got into the financial details of any organization, looked strictly at the process and how it interracts with the other processes)

These are my main reasons to support my position. As one can see and deduce, a failure in A/P and/or A/R can ultimately have a negative effect on the organization;s ability to satisfy customer's requirements. Isn't this one of the main points of a QMS?!?

I believe that you will be just fine in your audit. There are no specific documentation requirements applicable to the Accounting department other than as required by laws. The record retention is also often dictated by laws. The only area that could be questioned is the performance indicators and the actual performance of the Accounting department. I have seen A/R departments that monitor the accuracy of their invoices (customer disputes = payment delays), the past-due balance by number of days for example and/or the time between shipping and invoice submittal. Also A/P departments monitored outstanding invoices by numebr of days and/or invoice accuracy vs. receiving records (and sometimes fed supplier's performance into the overall supplier monitoring parameters).

As some of the postes have indicated, Accounting is one of the fuzzy areas that many 3rd party auditors avoid. Therefore it is a good chance that the process will not get audited. What I am trying to say is not to worry too much about this. It is great if you can pass a registration audit without any findings, but it is not unusual for 3-4 findings. Once you get part 10 findings then you need to take a serious second look at your QMS. Hope this helps.

samsung 8th March 2010 01:32 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
While it can be a good point of discussion why accounting should be (or shouldn't be) part of the QMS, yet the OP's current concern is, as a whole, related to review of the documents already identified and to which they are not sure if it's going to be a problem if the documents are not audited/ reviewed prior to the CB audit.

samsung 8th March 2010 01:58 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by DrM2u (Post 365601)
:applause: I believe that you will be just fine in your audit. There are no specific documentation requirements applicable to the Accounting department other than as required by laws. The record retention is also often dictated by laws. The only area that could be questioned is the performance indicators and the actual performance of the Accounting department. I have seen A/R departments that monitor the accuracy of their invoices (customer disputes = payment delays), the past-due balance by number of days for example and/or the time between shipping and invoice submittal. Also A/P departments monitored outstanding invoices by number of days and/or invoice accuracy vs. receiving records (and sometimes fed supplier's performance into the overall supplier monitoring parameters).

DrM2u, this is what the OP must be expecting as an aid that can support to resolve his concern. Excellent reply.

Quote:

First of all, I believe that you have taken the smart and logical approach to auditing by incorporating the Accounting process. As a 3rd party and internal auditor I almost always included Accounting in my audits. There is astill a great debate whether Accounting should be audited, but I say YES and here is why:

- A/P (aka Accounts Payable): as part of the business process the organization needs to know when and how to pay their suppliers. Failure to pay a supplier as agreed on terms can result in the supplier not delivering materials and components when needed or even stopping to conduct business with you. In today's economy, this holds truer than ever as more and more suppliers want to be paid on time before they deliver again. Anyone who does not believe this is a fool.

- A/R (aka Accounts Receivable): as part of the business process the organization needs to be paid on time as agreed on terms. Anyone with some business sense can attest to the importance of cash flow, specially steady cash flow. Failure to get paid on time can put the organization in situations where they are not able to pay their employees, their suppliers or keep the doors open. It also can put the organization at high risk if the customer files for bankruptcy. It has happened many times where a suppleir shut down because they had too much money tied with a bankrupt customer.
(Note: I never got into the financial details of any organization, looked strictly at the process and how it interacts with the other processes)

These are my main reasons to support my position. As one can see and deduce, a failure in A/P and/or A/R can ultimately have a negative effect on the organization;s ability to satisfy customer's requirements. Isn't this one of the main points of a QMS?!?
And this portion of your post is what I always cherish to welcome. Accounting is one of the key QMS processes which, if not interlinked with rest of the QMS, may leave the system not achieving it's true intent, i.e., customers' /stakeholders' satisfaction and it's a process where the satisfaction of many stakeholders remain always at stake.

Thanks for your convincing thoughts. :thanx:

Craig H. 8th March 2010 02:11 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Having an accounting degree I was somewhat confused at first while reading this thread.

To me, A/R and A/P are separate from accounting. The process of, well, processing invoices and payments is at an arms length from the hard core accounting that is done, as mentioned, for the G/L and Statement of Net Income, IMHO. Do we all agree, then, that A/R (Customer Service to me) and A/P (Purchasing) are fair game, but making sure that GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) is being followed is not? After all, how many of us are qualified to do such an audit (I am not)?

samsung 8th March 2010 02:34 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by Craig H. (Post 365622)
Having an accounting degree I was somewhat confused at first while reading this thread.

To me, A/R and A/P are separate from accounting. The process of, well, processing invoices and payments is at an arms length from the hard core accounting that is done, as mentioned, for the G/L and Statement of Net Income, IMHO. Do we all agree, then, that A/R (Customer Service to me) and A/P (Purchasing) are fair game, but making sure that GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) is being followed is not? After all, how many of us are qualified to do such an audit (I am not)?

A QMS auditor, with whatever qualification, may not be a jack of all trades yet, based on his/her auditing skills, training, competence and experience, s/he can reasonably audit any given process.

All industrial operations are based on certain scientific principles and also on 'generally accepted manufacturing practices' which every auditor isn't aware of. Similarly, the seemingly simple processes like logistics, material management, receiving and inspection, calibration, statistical data analysis etc. etc. have nothing in common but all are carried out in accordance with certain principles & practices peculiar to those sorts of operations. All auditors, internal or external, may not be so fluent & familiar with every aspect of these processes yet they do audit them effectively.

Hence, in short, in order to effectively audit any process (not accounting alone), I don't think the auditor needs to have mastery over the subject s/he is tasked to audit.

Craig H. 8th March 2010 03:15 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by samsung (Post 365632)
Hence, in short, in order to effectively audit any process (not accounting alone), I don't think the auditor needs to have mastery over the subject s/he is tasked to audit.

Agreed. But, they MUST have knowledge of the standard they are auditing to. My (now obsolete) copy of GAAP runs 3 volumes, approx. 6"x8", 1 1/2 inches thick each, printed on rice paper.

You can do an effective audit to GAAP? Sorry, respectfully, I doubt it. I could not do one now.

DrM2u 8th March 2010 03:54 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by Craig H. (Post 365622)
Having an accounting degree I was somewhat confused at first while reading this thread.

To me, A/R and A/P are separate from accounting. The process of, well, processing invoices and payments is at an arms length from the hard core accounting that is done, as mentioned, for the G/L and Statement of Net Income, IMHO. Do we all agree, then, that A/R (Customer Service to me) and A/P (Purchasing) are fair game, but making sure that GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) is being followed is not? After all, how many of us are qualified to do such an audit (I am not)?

:agree1: I agree! I don't think and many QMS auditors are qualified to perform financial/accounting audits to begin with. On top of that, I higly doubt that any auditor would have the time to even scratch the surface of a financial audit during a QMS audit. To add some whipped cream on the top, a financial audit is definitely outside the scope of a QMS audit. Whether one considers A/P and A/R within or outside the realm of accounting, that is another story for another debate. :lol:

somashekar 9th March 2010 01:46 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by DrM2u (Post 365651)
:agree1: I agree! I don't think and many QMS auditors are qualified to perform financial/accounting audits to begin with. On top of that, I higly doubt that any auditor would have the time to even scratch the surface of a financial audit during a QMS audit. To add some whipped cream on the top, a financial audit is definitely outside the scope of a QMS audit. Whether one considers A/P and A/R within or outside the realm of accounting, that is another story for another debate. :lol:

The interaction of accounting with regard to A/R in the Customer related processes (Clause 7.2) and A/P with regard to Purchasing (Clause 7.4) so as to close the loop and the interface of accounting with regard to Resource management (Clause 6) are perhaps the only matter when we talk about accounting in this context of the OP's question. Great feedbacks so far, and coming to objectives of accounting ... how s this ?
<< To hit at 100% "on due date" payments to all vendors monitored on a monthly basis >>

Helmut Jilling 9th March 2010 02:30 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by samsung (Post 365617)
DrM2u, this is what the OP must be expecting as an aid that can support to resolve his concern. Excellent reply.



And this portion of your post is what I always cherish to welcome. Accounting is one of the key QMS processes which, if not interlinked with rest of the QMS, may leave the system not achieving it's true intent, i.e., customers' /stakeholders' satisfaction and it's a process where the satisfaction of many stakeholders remain always at stake.

Thanks for your convincing thoughts. :thanx:

Very few companies I work with actually have internal auditors performing internal audits of Accounting, other than perhaps around the edges. Things like record retention, doc control, training, meeting objectives. Other than that, Accounting usually has its own auditing program, using qualified CPA firms or whatever.

I wrote a nonconformance once against Accounting in an ISO 9001 3rd party audit. They had 394 customer complaints for invoicing errors, and had not taken formal corrective action, "because Accounting was not in the scope of the QMS." But, I wrote the NC against the CAR process, for failure to effectively respond to customer issues, not against Accounting.

samsung 9th March 2010 03:45 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
I don't know much about the Service organizations but in many manufacturing industries, lot of auditing activities, other than QMS, are carried out round the year, partly due to statutory obligations and partly because of industries' own (non-statutory) requirements. These are Technical Audits aimed at optimization of equipment efficiency, Energy Audits, Process Audits (aimed at optimization of industrial processes), Environmental audits, Water audits, GHG audits and the likes. None of these audits can be considered as substitutes of QMS audits although most of the processes (atleast those related to production & maintenance) are well touched upon during the course of such audits.

What if a standalone accounting firm or a financial institution wishes to get certified to ISO 9001 ? Can it not do so? If it can, what documentation would they have ? How would their Quality Manual look like ? What processes would they identify and monitor given that the 'year around statutory audits' cannot be dispensed with ? Would a CB advise them not to go for QMS certification since you already have lot of other auditing activities? I'm just curious to know If everyone in an accounting/ finance deptt. is busy with auditing (or being audited) all the time, as argued manytimes, who is left to do the actual Accounting?

I don't know why the 'accounting process' is always equated with Audits alone? Afterall, the QMS is much more than Audits. Since, a statutory accounting audit has nothing to do with Customer/ stakeholder satisfaction and process effectiveness, these audits should not be considered as a potential substitute of QMS auditing.

Helmut Jilling 9th March 2010 07:37 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by samsung (Post 365722)
I don't know much about the Service organizations but in many manufacturing industries, lot of auditing activities, other than QMS, are carried out round the year, partly due to statutory obligations and partly because of industries' own (non-statutory) requirements. These are Technical Audits aimed at optimization of equipment efficiency, Energy Audits, Process Audits (aimed at optimization of industrial processes), Environmental audits, Water audits, GHG audits and the likes. None of these audits can be considered as substitutes of QMS audits although most of the processes (atleast those related to production & maintenance) are well touched upon during the course of such audits.

What if a standalone accounting firm or a financial institution wishes to get certified to ISO 9001 ? Can it not do so? If it can, what documentation would they have ? How would their Quality Manual look like ? What processes would they identify and monitor given that the 'year around statutory audits' cannot be dispensed with ? Would a CB advise them not to go for QMS certification since you already have lot of other auditing activities? I'm just curious to know If everyone in an accounting/ finance deptt. is busy with auditing (or being audited) all the time, as argued manytimes, who is left to do the actual Accounting?

I don't know why the 'accounting process' is always equated with Audits alone? Afterall, the QMS is much more than Audits. Since, a statutory accounting audit has nothing to do with Customer/ stakeholder satisfaction and process effectiveness, these audits should not be considered as a potential substitute of QMS auditing.

I think you are broadening the conversation. If an Accounting firm wishes to become certified to ISO 9001, they would define their processes just like any other company. They would then do internal audits of thoose processes. They probably would do an internal audit of the Accounting process, but perhaps just around the edges of record control, doc control, training, etc. In other words, they would probably do it like any other company. Regular internal auditors simply are not going to do a financial audit of the company books. It is a totally different auditing scheme, and they typically are not equipped to do it.

Ajit Basrur 9th March 2010 07:44 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001
 
I dare not audit my Finance Department because if I give them NC, my salary credit will be affected :tg:

samsung 9th March 2010 10:51 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling (Post 365748)
I think you are broadening the conversation. If an Accounting firm wishes to become certified to ISO 9001, they would define their processes just like any other company. They would then do internal audits of thoose processes. They probably would do an internal audit of the Accounting process, but perhaps just around the edges of record control, doc control, training, etc. In other words, they would probably do it like any other company. Regular internal auditors simply are not going to do a financial audit of the company books. It is a totally different auditing scheme, and they typically are not equipped to do it.

Exactly this is what I intended to convey. Regular internal auditors (even the CB auditors as well) need not do a financial audit in the same way as one is not supposed to do, e.g., an 'energy audit' or a 'technical audit' of the process during the course of 'internal QMS audits' because these are highly specialized areas and as such relevant subject experts are needed to accomplish such tasks and hence the 'financial audit' per se, shouldn't obviously become the epicenter of the discussion particularly when the process is seen from a QMS perspective.

There can be certain 'other' reasons leading an organization to not considering accounting or finance as a QMS process but certainly their decision for keeping it out shouldn't be based on statutory financial audits going on all round the year in these departments. Nonetheless, this argument is often strongly put whenever this point is discussed here.

Somehow I believe that it's still possible to discuss this issue (finance v/s QMS) even without dragging 'financial audits' into consideration.

Craig H. 9th March 2010 11:34 AM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by samsung (Post 365778)
Exactly this is what I intended to convey. Regular internal auditors (even the CB auditors as well) need not do a financial audit in the same way as one is not supposed to do, e.g., an 'energy audit' or a 'technical audit' of the process during the course of 'internal QMS audits' because these are highly specialized areas and as such relevant subject experts are needed to accomplish such tasks and hence the 'financial audit' per se, shouldn't obviously become the epicenter of the discussion particularly when the process is seen from a QMS perspective.

There can be certain 'other' reasons leading an organization to not considering accounting or finance as a QMS process but certainly their decision for keeping it out shouldn't be based on statutory financial audits going on all round the year in these departments. Nonetheless, this argument is often strongly put whenever this point is discussed here.

Somehow I believe that it's still possible to discuss this issue (finance v/s QMS) even without dragging 'financial audits' into consideration.

It is a little difficult to avoid "dragging" financial audits into a discussion framed by the question "should we audit accounting?".

I tried to focus the discussion a little more specifically by pointing out the areas of overlap (A/P and A/R specifically) and I think maybe that point has been missed?

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.

samsung 9th March 2010 01:17 PM

Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001
 
Quote:

In Reply to Parent Post by Craig H. (Post 365781)
It is a little difficult to avoid "dragging" financial audits into a discussion framed by the question "should we audit accounting?".

I tried to focus the discussion a little more specifically by pointing out the areas of overlap (A/P and A/R specifically) and I think maybe that point has been missed?

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.

If the question is "should we audit accounting?", I must say we can't avoid but, however, the discussion, has generally been around "should we have accounting within the QMS framework ?". My point is 'YES' simply for the fact that this process has direct linkage, not only with suppliers & employees etc. but with external customers who buy the products.

In addition to what DrM2u has pointed out, the internal auditors, while auditing the accounting process, should also stop to see how the process makes use of the results & recommendations of various 'financial audits' as a means of continual improvement with the application of tools such as data analysis, root cause determination & taking actions, anticipating and preventing problems at the first place etc. etc.

Quote:

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.
Me too.




The time now is 02:55 PM. All times are GMT -4.
Your time zone can be changed in your UserCP --> Options.




   

FAIR USE and CORRECTNESS NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe herein constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/ If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. In addition, I do not guarantee the correctness of the content. The risk of using content from the Elsmar Cove web site and forums remains with the user/visitor.

Responsibility Statement: Each person is responsible for anything they post in the Elsmar Cove forum. Neither I, Marc Timothy Smith, nor any of the forum Moderators, are responsible for the content of posts people make. Liability for post content resides with the poster as does interpretation and/or acceptance and/or use of advice by the reader.

Complaints: If you have a complaint with a post in a forum discussion thread, including Content in general, fighting, flaming, copyright infringement, defamation and/or 'slander', please use the 'Report This Post Report This Post Button button which appears at the top of every post in every thread.

Site courtesy of:
Marc Timothy Smith - Cayman Business Systems, 8466 Lesourdsville-West Chester Road, West Chester, Ohio 45069-1929 - USA
(513) 341-6272

If you are having problems Registering, Activating your Registration, or other problems, you can phone me in the US. I'm not here 24/7/365, but if I'm here I'll try to help.