ISO 9001 Re-Certification Audit: How Many Man-Days?

[Meggsy]

Hi All;

We are approaching a certificate renewal for ISO 9001, and we've been told the audit will be 9 audit days for a company of 210 employees. This seems a bit much to me. Can anyone point me in the direction of a standard which will show what the number of days should be? I've seen the IAF guidelines which shows "initial audit" days, but nothing for re-certification. We've been using the same company, and the same auditor, for about 15 years (first as a whole business certificate, then as a single certificate for one division), so the certification body is familiar with us.

Thanks in advance,
~M

[Sophia Castanien]

I have worked with mid size (150-300 employees) to small size companies (30-60 employees) and have never been to a 9 days Annual Surveilance audit, or Recertification (every 3 years).
Mid-size company 2 (Annual Surveillance), and 3-3 1/2 days for Recertification audit (once every 3 years), and small size company 1 day (for annual Surveilance), 2 days (Recertification audit).
They do have a formula to calculate how many days they will need. Never heard about 9 days. Now if your company is huge and have many facilities accross the Country, and do very complex work! They (The Registrars) will have a team of auditors to work on auditing your company. But usually they will never drag it out to 9 days!
This are my experiences with several ISO registrars. Other people may have different experience.
Sophia

[20110131]

In short: 9 auditor man-days likely means 3 auditors & 3 onsite days. sounds right!

Long dribble: One person would scream that 9 days is to many, and another would ask for more. Since you have been with them for 15 years, I can imagine they have worked for you. Amazingly there is a variation in days from company to company. They charge differently, and perform their jobs with slight differences also.

OMG, can you imagine that. Where has quality gone. In your comment about 9 days you were not clear.

1. Do you want them to stay longer, and look more diligently?
2. Has the price gone up, and the days gone down?
3. Is there a factor not spoken?
4. Does your $10,000-$15,000 annual tab seem to much?

A2LA will cost you about $1,500 a day + extras, with all costs included per inspector/auditor 8hour day.
NAVLAP is more expensive, ow-ya!
In most certification pricing tables, the time and cost is listed as "Variable", and they will let you know once they have received the application package.
In the IAF guidelines the estimate was for 9 auditor/days, meaning 3 bodies for 3 days likely. This does not sound excessive.
Your IAF guidelines @
http://www.ciras.iastate.edu/publications/CIRASNews/fall97/iso.html annex 2 page 32



There are several rules of thumb you might go by.

1. Cost = Last audit $ * this_audit_profit_factor (likely +5-10%)
2. Cost = bodies * days + more_charges
3. Days on site = [QM pages / 10 + SQRT[number_employees]/10]*[factor]/number_of_auditors

[Sophia Castanien]

Very good answer with all the facts! I aggree with George!
Sophia

[Meggsy]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. We are a multi-site certificate with approx 10 sites - 1 head office and 9 branch locations. In the past, our 6-monthly audits have been 2-3 days, 1 day at each of 2-3 locations.
This re-certification audit would be 6 sites - 2 days each at 3 locations, 1 day each at the other 3. There may be a second auditor so that the larger locations can be audited in a single day (2 auditors 1 day, rather than 1 auditor, 2 days), but this hasn't been decided yet.

The last renewal was when we were a whole-business certificate (4 times the number of sites, 4 times the number of employees), so I can't easily compare - and I wasn't responsible for the QMS then.

My concern is partly the cost (they haven't even spoken about the agreement yet, so I can't comment on whether the prices have changed), but mostly that with the auditor on site for a much longer time, there will be processes reviewed that haven't been reviewed before. I have been to the last 7 audit day, and the scope of what's been looked at has always been the same. If he's spending twice as long on a site - what else is he going to look at?

Maybe a dumb reason for being worried, but I am!

[Sidney Vianna]

In Reply to Parent Post by Meggsy

Can anyone point me in the direction of a standard which will show what the number of days should be? I've seen the IAF guidelines which shows "initial audit" days, but nothing for re-certification.

The IAF MD5 document paragraph 6.1 stipulates:

The duration of the recertification audit should be calculated on the basis of the updated information of the client and is normally approximately 2/3 of the time that would be required for an initial certification audit (Stage 1 + Stage 2) of the organization if such an initial audit were to be carried out at the time of recertification (i.e. not 2/3 of the original initial certification audit duration). The audit duration shall take account the outcome of the review of system performance (ISO/IEC 17021 cl. 9.4.1.2).

[Meggsy]

Thanks, Sidney - that's what I was looking for. I will ask our certification body why they're suggesting the same as the initial audit - I think it should only be 6 days!