How you can evaluate ISO 9001 Certification Body (CB) Auditors during their visits?

[wessamsheta2000]

Hi all,
sorry if this subject is repeated, but I try hard to search about similar subject here and in the internet but unfortunately I failed.

Any way, what I want to speak about it today is "HOW you can evaluate your CB during their visits"

And what I am exactly want to evaluate not the auditors knowledge or experience or the criteria of findings issuance because this is not my problem.

1- My 1st problem is that I had (not have, because we just changed him lately) CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

2- 2nd problem, During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

so how can I evaluate any CB and if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Thanks.

[Colin]

It is always sad to hear stories like yours where organisations get so little satisfaction from their CB because I am sure they are a small minority of the audits that go on satisfactorily every day.

Still, you had the good sense to recognise the problem and change CB's - well done for that.

When choosing a new one you can of course ask around other companies and see what their experiences are, get testimonials from people here on the Cove and you can also interview the CB. Ask them to send someone along and 'sell' their CB to you.

Make sure that you know what you want from a CB - in other words, be careful what you wish for. There may be some people in your organisation that were quite happy with the method of auditing chosen by your previous CB!

[Marc]

In Reply to Parent Post by Colin

<snip> When choosing a new one you can of course ask around other companies and see what their experiences are, get testimonials from people here on the Cove and you can also interview the CB. Ask them to send someone along and 'sell' their CB to you.

Make sure that you know what you want from a CB - in other words, be careful what you wish for. There may be some people in your organisation that were quite happy with the method of auditing chosen by your previous CB!

And *always* require a copy of the CV (resume, if you will) of the auditor(s) which the CB is going to send.

[tomvehoski]

In Reply to Parent Post by Colin

It is always sad to hear stories like yours where organisations get so little satisfaction from their CB because I am sure they are a small minority of the audits that go on satisfactorily every day.

I see the exact opposite. Weak audits are the norm, not the exception, of what I have seen in the last 10 years across multiple employers and clients. It is all about the money, and will continue to be that way as long as the CB is dependent on the auditee for $$$$.

[Helmut Jilling]

In Reply to Parent Post by tomvehoski

I see the exact opposite. Weak audits are the norm, not the exception, of what I have seen in the last 10 years across multiple employers and clients. It is all about the money, and will continue to be that way as long as the CB is dependent on the auditee for $$$$.

I don't know, that seems harsh. I have interacted with perhaps 150 auditors over the years. Sure, they were not all brilliant... But, if one applies a reasonable standard of competence -
* Do they know the standards?
* Do they know audit technique?
* Do they have relevant experience?
* Can they interact with management in a professional, equivalent manner?
* Do they have appropriate language, business, and computer skills?
* etc.
I think if I were to plot them on a graph, as to relative competency - they would probably fill a typical bell-curve distribution.

As in every industry, some are brilliant,
many are good - very good,
a fair numbe rare below average to various degrees, and littl over their heads,
and a few are just plain poor.

A typical bell-curve. I wish it were a little better, but, isn't every industry like that?

Even the managers at the clients would fall into the same curve.

[Colin]

In Reply to Parent Post by Helmut Jilling

<snip> As in every industry, some are brilliant,
many are good - very good,
a fair number are below average to various degrees, and little over their heads,
and a few are just plain poor.

A typical bell-curve. I wish it were a little better, but, isn't every industry like that?

Even the managers at the clients would fall into the same curve.<snip>

Great answer Helmut. I agree that not all auditors are great and some are downright poor - and we should expect better - but the same can be said for many quality managers too.

How many times do we find the auditor having to explain the concept of improvement and setting realistic quality objectives for example?

Why does the auditor have to push so hard to get internal auditors to record decent objective evidence and for companies to review their QMS with the intent which the standard requires?

As someone involved in consultancy, training and auditing, I sit on both sides of the fence depending on which day it is so I prefer to see a better balance to the situation.

[qusys]

In Reply to Parent Post by wessamsheta2000

Hi all,
sorry if this subject is repeated, but I try hard to search about similar subject here and in the internet but unfortunately I failed.

Any way, what I want to speak about it today is "HOW you can evaluate your CB during their visits"

And what I am exactly want to evaluate not the auditors knowledge or experience or the criteria of findings issuance because this is not my problem.

1- My 1st problem is that I had (not have, because we just changed him lately) CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

2- 2nd problem, During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.
and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

so how can I evaluate any CB and if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Thanks.

I think you could ask for a meeting or call to discuss about your "requirements" and desiderata with CB. They will be happy to receive your inpust to improve its 3rd part auditing process.
Consider that the activities of Cb are monitored by higher level organization , for example with witness audit, where registrar auditors are assessed by external representative.

[Sidney Vianna]

In Reply to Parent Post by wessamsheta2000

if there are common rules between me and him like "what is his real actions before and during registration visit and survillance visits" so I can evaluate the new CB coming to me.

Assuming that you are working with CB's that have proper accreditation, they should be following ISO 17021. That standard requires the CB's themselves to have management systems in place and give the CB's two options:

1. follow ISO 9001 themselves, slightly amended or
2. comply with option 2

Anyhow, the CB, operating in such a competitive marketplace should be VERY interested and RESPONSIVE to customer expectations and FEEDBACK.

In Reply to Parent Post by wessamsheta2000

CB all what he cared about is the money !!!!!! and he can see majors infront of him and forget about it because he think that if he raised majors, he will lose us as a customer which ofcourse not our policy as respectable company and not accepted.

Did you ever provide feedback to the CB about the auditor repeated softgrading practices? Was the auditor aware of your expectations for them to report the nonconformities as such? In principle, that's what they should be doing all along, but, who knows? Many misguided auditors and misguided registrants play the softgrading game which brings the credibility of the certification process into disrepute.

In Reply to Parent Post by wessamsheta2000

During about 6 years of repeated visits, that CB not even once put some departments in his scheduele at all !!!!!!!!!, and believe me that dept.'s affect the product quality (design dept's !!!!!!!!!), is that Acceptable.

If your scope of certification includes product design, this is not acceptable. It would be a MAJOR fault of the CB. But, and once again, did you EVER question the CB about their failure to assess the product design process?

In Reply to Parent Post by wessamsheta2000

and also all his visits (suvelliance audits) is very short about a day maximum on company having 4 sites and about 1200 employees.

This violates in a HUGE way the IAF MD5 document, which stipulates minimum audit time.

Is the CB in question accredited? By whom?